27 posts Page 3 of 3
There is always personal choice within all things.

If you want to follow the program, you will follow the program, if you don't want to follow the ideas and suggestions, you are always able to plan your own route to better health.

There are many who can fall into the trap that George outlines, but it is easy enough to slip off the diet or the meditation or exercise, and although we strive to do better and not slip, once you do slip, it's not much more of a slide back to a full Western diet, no meditation, no exercise sort of life.

There are "No Rules" that we, or the program can make you follow, good ideas and suggestions that have been evaluated over many years, there is a certain amount that you can take on faith, (or argue against), but that will still be your personal choice.
Be well, live long and prosper!
Farrier wrote: There is always personal choice within all things.

If you want to follow the program, you will follow the program, if you don't want to follow the ideas and suggestions, you are always able to plan your own route to better health.

There are many who can fall into the trap that George outlines, but it is easy enough to slip off the diet or the meditation or exercise, and although we strive to do better and not slip, once you do slip, it's not much more of a slide back to a full Western diet, no meditation, no exercise sort of life.

There are "No Rules" that we, or the program can make you follow, good ideas and suggestions that have been evaluated over many years, there is a certain amount that you can take on faith, (or argue against), but that will still be your personal choice.


Of course no one can 'make' anyone to do anything. But I do think there is a difference btween OMS-rules, and OMS-'rules' so to speak. Please let me explain what I mean by this.

Saturated fats are to be avoided as much as possible, preferably none. That's a rule, there's also reasoning as to why this is the case and it should be followed.
Meat (and I'm talking about the skinless low-fat kind) is considered to be off-limits due to it containing saturated fat, and it being a stepping stone to more harmful meats such as a steak or a burger. The same scientific explanation as to why saturated fats and dairy are off-limits, seems to be missing here. It's more of a psychological thing. That is what I would call a 'rule'. There seems to be some flexibility here.

Yet, if someone did help themselves to some (very) low in fat meats it - theoretically - would still be within OMS' guidelines of avoiding saturated fats, heated oils etc. etc. Yes, the program does say "avoid meats". But when looking up as to why, it is not because meat on itself causes inflammation (and if it does, I must have missed the pages explaining this, so feel free to tell me where to look for them) but rather due to the stepping stone to worse kinds of foods as I mentioned earlier. And of course, you would not be able to have a lot of it, and you would have to have a very strong will as to not relapse back to your old habits. And we all know that us humans are very easy to fall of the wagon, like you rightfully mentioned in your post. But I don't think that's everyone.

While I do agree that probably for the majority of people, the easiest thing to do to keep on with the program for an extended period of time is to just skip meat altogether. And eventually you won't even miss it (like the FAQ says). Yet going by George's podcast, there seem to be certain side paths that would still fit with the science behind OMS. And while I'm not saying people should be advocating those alternative routes towards the same goal, I do think people should be a bit more open-minded about the 'rules' of OMS.

I hope my explanation made any sense.
I realized after I posted it that my previous post may / did sound judgmental, to an extent that was not justified by you, (or your question), and so I apologize!

To me there is sound thought behind the facts that meat contains meat proteins, and that there is strong evidence that these proteins are part of those things that exacerbate / cause demyelination in auto immune diseases. I can't get away from the thought that if meat proteins are "bad", and as most will accept, red meat is worse for you than white meat, that eating the white meats may be "better", (or at least less bad), then it should be OK! Unfortunately IMO meat is meat, and proteins are proteins, that's why I say it all comes down to our personal choices, the guide lines of the program offer "best use" or "best practice" and until there are more long term studies with empirical scientific evidence, (rather than just those under OMS, Swank etc.), it is still all just down to a matter of those choices we make!

I am a searcher for the logic and reasons of everything too, and I applaud your determination to find them, (if you look back at many of the questions I asked when first finding OMS), but following the program has changed my life / mind so much, that I have too some extent become an 'evangelical commentator on the forum, and that's not my intention. All questions are legitimate in our search for answers and that's what I really want to encourage, (not discourage).

If my posts discourage questions and comments, then I'm not doing the program any favors. Though in the next breath, I also don't want people to read questions and comments, that add to the information overload, that many new to OMS members suffer. It appears difficult enough for newbies to grasp the idea of the program, (as a whole), and to step wholeheartedly inside, without doubt or dissent slowing the benefits that they could be experiencing!

Thanks to everyone for their patience with my posting style, (and format)!
Be well, live long and prosper!
Farrier wrote: I realized after I posted it that my previous post may / did sound judgmental, to an extent that was not justified by you, (or your question), and so I apologize!

To me there is sound thought behind the facts that meat contains meat proteins, and that there is strong evidence that these proteins are part of those things that exacerbate / cause demyelination in auto immune diseases. I can't get away from the thought that if meat proteins are "bad", and as most will accept, red meat is worse for you than white meat, that eating the white meats may be "better", (or at least less bad), then it should be OK! Unfortunately IMO meat is meat, and proteins are proteins, that's why I say it all comes down to our personal choices, the guide lines of the program offer "best use" or "best practice" and until there are more long term studies with empirical scientific evidence, (rather than just those under OMS, Swank etc.), it is still all just down to a matter of those choices we make!

I am a searcher for the logic and reasons of everything too, and I applaud your determination to find them, (if you look back at many of the questions I asked when first finding OMS), but following the program has changed my life / mind so much, that I have too some extent become an 'evangelical commentator on the forum, and that's not my intention. All questions are legitimate in our search for answers and that's what I really want to encourage, (not discourage).

If my posts discourage questions and comments, then I'm not doing the program any favors. Though in the next breath, I also don't want people to read questions and comments, that add to the information overload, that many new to OMS members suffer. It appears difficult enough for newbies to grasp the idea of the program, (as a whole), and to step wholeheartedly inside, without doubt or dissent slowing the benefits that they could be experiencing!

Thanks to everyone for their patience with my posting style, (and format)!


Haha it's fine. I have to admit I was being too eager myself. And yeah, I did notice that these boards sometimes do have this "evangelical" feel about them. But I think that is only natural when you are reaping its benefits, noticing that it really works. You might be thinking "come on people! It works, stop struggling and join us!". Who wouldn't? Er, maybe that sounded a bit too Borg-like :lol: Sorry, I'm such a nerd...

I understand your reasoning with the proteins bit, and it's sound reasoning. And I agree with you, new people may be getting too much information to go through which could scare them off. I just hope that conversations like these might actually help them decide for themselves what they think is best for them. Surely, I can't be the only person confused about the science behind avoiding (low fat) meat?

And honestly, the main reason why I don't want to ban meats that are very low in fat altogether, is due to not having the right alternatives to have for breakfast. I can't eat jams and marmelade every morning. Nor salads. Nor shakes. I want bread, and I want to put something on it that isn't sweet. Which is where lean Turkey slices (<1% fat) come into play for me. I shall continue my search, because eventually I do want to ban out all meat (besides Salmon I suppose. I love Salmon).
Bowl of porridge here :-)
I can't find the specific references to meat in the OMS book (the only criticism I have is the index), but if you look at omega 6 to omega 3 ratio of turkey, it is about twenty times as much omega 6 as omega 3. We want more omega 3 and less omega 6. To quote page 68 of the book "high in omega-6s results in immune chemicals which promote the inflammatory response, and one high in omega-3s results in chemicals which suppress the inflammatory response."
OMS since 17/08/2015
Diagnosis 28/05/2015 - 22/09/2015
Apologies on my part - I picked up the old book. The index in the new book is much better.

Loads of stuff on meat. There's 13 different references to meat consumption and, while it does say that we should avoid ultra low fat meat to avoid slipping into other meats, it also says that proteins and omega 6 can cause problems. The HOLISM study found a better outcome for people that avoided meat.

(by meat, I mean animal meat, not fish)
OMS since 17/08/2015
Diagnosis 28/05/2015 - 22/09/2015
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