36 posts Page 2 of 4
Maree said : ''The Prof has told us what to do to remain healthy,
we shouldn't recommend people do something else, we are not qualified to suggest
it would be ok to have some chicken or chocolate or eggs because it will make you feel
good. It wont make you feel good for long.''

I think telling each other what we should and shouldn't do in general isn't the way to go. We all find our own way and we are all struggling with the same things on here. I was just letting Cazzie know what I do. At the end of the day we can only decide for ourselves what's best for us.

Maree said we are not qualified to suggest
it would be ok to have some chicken or chocolate or eggs because it will make you feel

but I think it's important that we all feel we can discuss these issues openly - one of the great features of the OMS programme is that it's about exploring the evidence and making decisions, guided by Jelinek's recommendations. One of the main reasons I was drawn to it is that it encourages this self-determination rather than being "follow these instructions exactly and mindlessly because I say so".
I quit red meat, dairy (other than fat-free), palm and coconut oils as soon as I read the book, having found Jelinek's arguments and the evidence he based them on very convincing. Since than all dairy has gone. I don't eat chocolate - but I do sometimes have chicken (skinless breast only; Swank allowed it, so I feel it's an acceptable compromise when I'm in a situation where I have little choice about what to eat) or egg (again, Swank allowed these in moderation). I'm not advocating that others should do the same - and I don't think Miriam was either. I'm far from perfect - but I find it really useful to be able to discuss these matters openly and collaborate with other OMSers in working out a path to recovery that's right for me. I'm becoming stricter on diet and exercise as time goes on and I get used to it and learn recipes, exercise techniques etc that mean it's not a stressful struggle but something that feels more like a natural evolution of my lifestyle following diagnosis with MS.

PS Maree also said I think it's a good idea
to go back and read his book again when we start to go off track
, which is a great idea. The book is an excellent review of the evidence, crammed with information, and I find I spot new things on re-reading it - reading some of the sources Jelinek gives references for is a good plan too. And, of course, chatting on here can help loads - we all need to find our own way, but we don't have to do it alone.
Sorry if I offended anyone, I made the mistake of going off track with the diet and I
dont want anyone else to do that. I want us all to be well. You are right, the swank diet allows
some of these things. As I said it was just my opinion.
I sometimes get some Soy Ice cream. Completely acceptable according to the diet. I eat one serving per night and it lasts 1 week. One serving is not what someone eats when they take a bowl of ice cream - it's literally 1/2 cup. I think there are 1-2 grams of Sat fat - maybe 2.5. I'll have to check.

If I ate coco butter one night instead of my soy ice cream and there were the same number of grams of sat fat, who is qualified to say that that particular gram or two is harmful, whereas the sat fat in the soy is not.

My point is that *if you have the discipline* and you know who you are - and you are genuinely not tempted to eat the whole bar - and it is non-dairy. Then you are still within the diet. You've just done something considered dangerous because of the temptation. As a matter of fact, I don't eat chocolate. As I eased into the diet, I ate a few pieces here and there, but it's been at least one year.

And a number of you (me too) eat the occasional chicken breast or egg. There's a small cheat and there's falling off the wagon and if you can't control yourself then be careful.

Or am I missing the point?

Diagnosis: Jan 2010, OMS April 2010.

I very much discourage cheating because I know too many people who have cheated and then suffered some very bad relapses. It gets harder and harder to recover from these relapses caused by cheating so at some point, one has to decide if one wants to eat foods with saturated fats or walk, or see, or whatever. As a matter of fact, I know someone right now who is having a nasty relapse and lots of problem with MS after cheating. These common stories help me stay on track. I hope they help others stick with healthy eating too.

Alex said:
If I ate coco butter one night instead of my soy ice cream and there were the same number of grams of sat fat, who is qualified to say that that particular gram or two is harmful, whereas the sat fat in the soy is not.

I get confused on this one too, sometimes. I think it could be partly about simplicity - e.g. it's easier to just think (and explain to family, friends etc) "I don't eat red meat", even though some red meats, such as venison and some other game, are very low fat. It could also partly be about what you're getting along with the fat - oily fish are providing lots of omega 3s, protein and vitamins too. This is my reasoning for occasionally eating egg (as it contains lots of B vitamins and minerals). From this point of view, chicken seems a worse "cheat" as other than proteins and iron it's not providing much - but then again eggs have more of the saturated fat than chicken does - I'l continue cutting down on the (already infrequent) occasions when I eat either - replacing chicken with other protein sources like legumes, replacing whole eggs with egg white only. It's a gradual process for me, though, as that's what'll make it easier for me to stick with as a permanent change (as my health improves I become gradually more capable of cooking absolutely everything from scratch while also working full time as the main breadwinner in the household).
Rebecca - are you saying a nibble of non-dairy chocolate put them into a relapse, or were they unable to control themselves and cheated in a very large way?
Or are you just discouraging cheating as a matter of small sins leading to larger ones. Overall, it is better to simply avoid, but some of us do have the discipline to take a bite and stay within our sat fat limits.

Diagnosis: Jan 2010, OMS April 2010.

I don't know anyone who eats chocolate who does well with MS and I don't buy the "I can control my cheating" argument anymore than I buy the "I can control my drinking" argument. I definitely encourage avoiding chocolate. Chocolate is just junk, unhealthy food -- pure and simple. The folks I know with MS who eat chocolate have lots of problems with fatigue if not with outright disability. All in all, I think the little sins add up faster than most want to admit and therein lies the problem with cheating.

By the way, Alex, since you are cheating, I am wondering how your fatigue is doing? How about that tingling after exercise? How is that doing? Please keep in mind that the little cheating that you don't think matters merely delays your body's removal of saturated fat from the small blood vessels in your body and merely delays improvements in fatigue and a resolution of the fragility that plagues those with MS. Under the best of circumstances removing that saturated fat requires three years.

Then let's say you have finally managed to clean out those little blood vessels with the right diet, exercise, etc., do you really want to start slowing clogging them back up with your chocolate and other cheating? Every unhealthy calorie eaten is not only an unhealthy calorie consumed, it is a healthy calorie foregone. I wonder how those with MS are going to get healthy if they fill up with unhealthy calories rather than healthy calories. Swank was quite clear that those of us with MS have to behave and that is what I have seen too. There is a lot of difference in a saturated fat gram from fish and a saturated fat gram from chocolate. You know that and so I. The right fish always combine saturated fats with loads of healthy omega-3s but as we both know the same is never true for chocolate.

Alex, I think you know all of this and are just arguing with me. Rascal!

Maree - you certainly didn't offend me. Sorry if I was a bit brusque (much stress at the moment due to simultaneous job interviews and house hunting - why does life always throw all these things at people all in one go?) - just think one of the best things about Jelinek's programme is how we can all find our own way, sharing the same programme but putting emphasis on different parts of it and inspiring each other in different ways - Alex describes the amazing results of exercise, Gareth helps others find the way to benefit from meditation, Kashu inspires people (certainly me!) to quit even fat-free dairy, Rebecca reminds us of the importance of rest and sets a great example of the long-term benefits that can be achieved through diet, rest and exercise without medication, mrmiller develops a diet that combines Swank's approach with avoiding gluten and legumes as Ashton Embry advocates, Bjorn shares key insights on the mind-body connection... and there are so many great discussions on here that I could go on all morning about these OMSers and many more! Your own thoughts and insights are just as important and relevant - please keep sharing them!
I must say, I also find the thoughts and insights shared on this forum to be invaluable to sticking with the OMS diet. I can be feeling quite down or disillusioned with the way things are and be tempted to eat something I shouldn't, but then come onto this forum and am truly inspired by everyone's input, personal experiences and successes, am put back on the straight and narrow and don't eat whatever it was I was about to be tempted by!

This particular thread has been great to follow as people have pointed out some facts that I needed to be reminded of. Thank you Rebecca for drumming home the point of sat fat taking at least 3 years to get out of your system, and that cheating doesn't help.

Great idea about reading George's book again, I think I shall do that as it's so easy to forget things, or as you have found Catriona, finding new things in there that you missed the first time.

I seem to be back on the booze again having managed to stop drinking for a few months earlier in the year. Not that I have a drinking problem, I just love red wine! It's the summer and I've been to several friend's parties and got home in the early hours (or not so early) the next day and have obviously then suffered from tiredness for a good week afterwards.

Does anyone know how much sat fat there is in a glass of red wine? I need to be put back on the straight and narrow as at the moment diet, exercise and meditation are going well but I seem to blow it with the booze.

I would like to just add that I've been following this diet strictly now since just before Christmas, and have known I have made some improvements but it's difficult to see sometimes. However, the 40th birthday party I was at last week was full of friends i hadn't seen since a friend's wedding in October last year. So many people commented on how much younger and fitter I looked and how much my mobility seemed to have improved. At the wedding last October, I could barely hobble around on 2 sticks and had to be pushed around on a wheelie type office chair as the day went on. At the party last week I was able to walk up and down the 15 or so stairs into the venue, and even put down my sticks and to dance later on... hooray!!
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