Expert Insights – The Overcoming MS Diet

01:00 Introduction to Overcoming MS and the diet

03:42 Overview of the Overcoming MS Program and Karen’s MS diagnosis

08:21 The role of poor diet in chronic illness and inflammation

10:42 MS-specific diet studies showing improved quality of life

21:13 What to eat and what to avoid

32:48 Intermittent fasting and brain health

35:19 Resources and support

35:57 Ingrid’s personal story

39:07 Practical strategies from Ingrid

45:57 Mindset and consistency

48:47 Saturated fats

52:32 Weight loss and protein shakes

55:58 Flaxseed oil alternatives

01:05:48 Cheese alternatives

01:14:59 Chocolate

01:17:54 Sandwiches: non-dairy spreads, hummus and tofu

01:21:54 Menopause

01:23:57 Living Well Live event information

Karen Lee

Karen is a retired intensive care nurse, nutritionist, advocate for plant-based eating, author and recipe developer. She was diagnosed with MS in March 2016 after several bouts of severe optic neuritis. She feels very fortunate to have been aware of Overcoming MS through a work colleague and adopted the Program straight away.

Already eating a whole-food plant-based diet, she soon learnt the importance of the other six pillars in managing her health and is very happy that she remains well and active.

Karen has created and run her own courses in whole-food plant-based eating and loves teaching people to cook amazingly tasty food that just happens to be good for health. She published her first book in 2019 and has a second coming out in 2025.

Ingrid Adelsberger

Ingrid spent over a decade working in the corporate world in the US before her life took a new direction following her MS diagnosis in 2011. Realizing the corporate environment no longer aligned with her goals, she took time to reassess her path and pursued a Master’s Degree in Integrative Health Sciences. She went on to became a Health Coach for a subsidiary of an insurance company, supporting others in achieving their wellness goals.

After being diagnosed with MS, Ingrid discovered the Overcoming MS Program and began implementing its evidence-based recommendations but faced challenges in maintaining the dietary lifestyle. This experience sparked her inspiration to create the Overcoming Multiple Sclerosis Cookbook, addressing the lack of Overcoming MS-friendly recipe resources at the time.

Ingrid’s journey has been shaped by resilience and a commitment to learning, including valuable insights from overcoming challenges along the way. She now serves as a co-ambassador for the Global Circle of Overcoming MS, providing support for people without a local Circle.

Karen Lee (00:39.512)

So hello everyone, we’re just letting people in. So it’s great to see you all. Thank you for coming today. We’ll get started in a moment, just waiting for a few more people to be let in. And then we will start the session tonight. This is always a popular session on diet. So we’ve got lots registered. So I can just see the numbers still popping up.

 

Karen Lee (01:21.538)

Okay, I think we’ll get started. So hello everyone and welcome back to the Living Well with MS webinar series. We’re in season six and we’re so pleased to bring you tonight’s session where we will be discussing and deep diving into the topic of the overcoming MS diet and bringing it to life, the overcoming MS program with the help of our expert Program Facilitators and community members. So my name is Karen Lee.

I’m an Overcoming MS Program Facilitator, also a Nutritionist, and I’m joining you this evening from mid-Devon in the UK in the South West. It’s a beautiful evening. In today’s webinar, as we’re going to be discussing the Overcoming MS Diet, we’re to be joined by community member, cookbook author and Program Facilitator Ingrid Adelsberger, who will be sharing her experience of the diet pillar and helping me to answer some of your questions as well a little bit later on. Now, before we get started, I just want to run through a bit of housekeeping just to help to keep the webinar running as smoothly as possible for you. So first of all, you’ll notice that the session is being recorded and you will receive a link via Zoom afterwards, sometimes next week, so you can watch the recording if you wish. And because it’s a Zoom webinar, you’re only going to be able to see the guest speakers.

However, we still want it to be interactive, so you can still ask questions using the Q &A tab on your screen. And please do that. We’ve had a few pre-submitted ones as well, but we’d love to hear any live questions from you. Now, please note, however, that we can’t comment or revise on individual circumstances. So try to make your questions as generalized as possible so that everyone can benefit from the answers.

Now we’re scheduled for 90 minutes tonight for our webinar and we will do our best to answer the questions as much as we can. But we do tend to get quite a lot. So don’t be disheartened if we don’t reach your one. Now, hopefully you won’t have any technical problems, but if you do, try exiting your browser and re-enter using the link in your email. And we recommend using Chrome as the browser. It just seems to work better.

Karen Lee (03:41.922)

We tried to make the session as accessible as possible. And today we are using subtitles, which you may see at the bottom of your screen. You can turn these off and on again by clicking the CC live transcript option. And as you exit the webinar, you’re going to see a short survey pop up automatically, which we’d really appreciate your feedback as it helps us to shape future webinars and events going forward. Right. And let me just click a little bit so I can see where I’m at and let’s get the presentation started. So in the next 25 minutes or so, I’m gonna give you a brief summary, just a little recap of the overcoming MS program. We’re gonna have a look about how diet and MS are connected. And I’m gonna give you an overview of the research. Gonna look up what the problem with saturated fat is.

And then we’re gonna dive into the diets. We’re gonna look at what’s included, what’s avoided, and where to get lots of inspiration from. That should take about 25 minutes. And then we’re going to pass to Ingrid. And she’s going to share her story and her background of using or eating the Overcoming MS diet, but also to give you the background about the Overcoming MS Cookbook and how it came about. Then once she’s finished, we’ll come to your questions.

So, before I do start, I just want to tell you a little bit more about myself. So as I say, I live in Mid Devon with my husband in the lovely countryside. I’ve got two adult children who have definitely fled the nest. And I was diagnosed with relapsing MS back in 2016. At the time, I was working as intensive care nurse. Very soon after that, retired from that workplace, but I was already a qualified nutritionist and working as my alter ego, which is a sensitive foodie. So I teach people about eating whole food plant-based diets and create recipes and I’m an author as well. And I’ve been an overcoming MS facilitator for about eight months now, I think, maybe a little bit longer. I’ve lost track.

Karen Lee (06:01.422)

Right, before, as I say, before we go into the diet in detail, I just want to give you a little overview of the Overcoming MS Program as a whole. And as I’m sure you know, that MS is influenced by a mix of genetic and environmental factors. And there’s not just one gene involved here. The MS Trust state that over 200 genes have been recognised as influencing the risk of the onset of MS. The risk does increase slightly if it’s already in the family, but as genes take time to change and the number of people with MS continues to increase, it’s known that environmental factors seem to have a bigger influence. And it’s things like smoking, low vitamin D, stress, lack of exercise, poor diet.

All of these lifestyle factors do increase the risk of MS, as well as other chronic health conditions like heart disease. And we know that other chronic health issues also increase the risk of developing MS in the first place, and they also fuel disability and disease progression. And this is where the Overcoming MS Program really comes in. It’s research-backed lifestyle modifications that can turn or can transform these negative environmental influences into positive ones. So I won’t go into diet now because obviously we’re going to be covering it in a moment. But getting out in the sun and supplementing with vitamin D is important. And we recommended to aim to keep our blood levels between 100 to 150 nanomoles per litre. You don’t need the nanomoles really, just the number. And that’s in the UK, other countries measure it different ways. So we’re looking to keep your numbers between 40 and 60. Physical activity. So this includes basically moving in whatever way you enjoy and works for you. So the standard guidelines for exercise is to get 150 minutes per week. That can obviously be broken down into lots of different sessions. So it could include quite…

Karen Lee (08:20.942)

heart cardio if you like, so swimming or running. It could be working out at the gym, doing some resistance exercises, yoga, Pilates. It could also be chasing after the children or grandchildren, walking the dog, gardening. It’s basically making sure that we keep moving. Stress management. Stress has a major impact on MS and we recommend a daily mindfulness or meditative practice, ideally for 30 minutes. Medication, this includes disease modifying therapies if you choose to take them, but also other medications like it could be some painkillers or supplements that you choose to take. And family health is all about encouraging your siblings or your children to stay as healthy as possible to reduce their risk of developing MS. So this includes encouraging them to take supplement with vitamin D or get outside. To eat healthily, to exercise and to manage their stress as well. And then the change in life for life pillar. Well, this is probably the most important one really because MS is a condition that is with us for life and therefore the actions that we take need to be new habits and a changed mindset that enable us to live well even though we’ve got MS.

So what we eat is important for everyone, not just for people with MS. And the old saying, are what you eat, is apt, as we are literally made from the compounds taken from the food that we eat. When it comes to health, it’s not over dramatic to say that every meal can either heal or harm. The rise in the Western diet eating pattern over the last 80 years has coincided with a huge increase in chronic health conditions and obesity. It’s not just MS, it’s affecting.

The Western diet is formed of cheap, low-quality products, which high in saturated fats and refined sugars, high in animal products, low in fibre and low in fresh fruit and vegetables. A poor quality diet fuels inflammation and cell degeneration, which are the underlying processes in MS and all chronic health conditions. So eating food that supports the body to stay well is now an important part of disease management. And how do we know that? Let’s look at the research.

Karen Lee (10:42.958)

So these two studies, this one is from 2018, this one’s from 2022, they highlight that diet quality is key. Now they don’t recommend one specific dietary pattern, but quality is defined as one that’s high in fruit, vegetables, whole grains, and healthy fats, and low in saturated fat, refined foods, and red and processed meat. And both these studies conclude that diet can improve outcomes for people with MS. Whether or not it’s lessening disability and symptom burden or reducing fatigue and increasing quality of life. All of which I think you’ll probably agree are important things. And if you’ve been told there’s no evidence that diet impacts MS, then remember this paper from 2023 that concludes that there really is sufficient evidence and it should be recommended as part of a disease management programme.

And getting the right support is key. And one of the wonderful things about overcoming MS is that there is plenty of support in all sorts of different ways. And I’m going to cover those a bit later on.

Karen Lee (11:57.134)

Sorry, it’s froze for a minute. So at Overcoming MS, we promote a brain healthy diet. It’s packed full of delicious, healthful food that nourishes the body and promotes healing. So it’s low in saturated fat and it’s full of healthy, healthier unsaturated fats. It’s packed full of whole plant foods and it includes fish and seafood if you desire. It also includes a daily supplement, 20 to 40 mils of cold pressed flax seed oil as a source of anti-inflammatory and MECA 3 fats. It’s the Mediterranean diet and it matches the diet that is currently recommended by the American Heart Association as a healthy diet. And the food included in the overcoming MS diet can be adapted to all budgets, cultures and cuisines. And this is so important as MS affects people from all communities around the world. So it’s a nutritionally sound framework that doesn’t necessitate the need to buy expensive products and expensive supplements when it can be adapted to the whole family. And I think something that’s accessible, adaptable and affordable is really important.

So what is the problem with saturated fat? So let’s start with Dr. Roy Swank. So he hypothesized that a high saturated fat diet fueled disease progression for people with MS. Now this was back in the early 1950s. He recruited 150 patients families onto a trial and he told them to eat 20 grams or less of saturated fat a day. Now in the scheme of things, that’s not actually that low.

The current American Heart Association guidelines to reduce cholesterol, for example, is to eat only 11 to 13 grams of saturated fat a day. But despite this, half the participants couldn’t reach this 20 gram target. So whilst there wasn’t a control group, but the participants actually self-selected into two groups for him to compare.

Karen Lee (14:07.842)

This study is outstanding because it ran for an incredible 34 years, which is a long time in research terms. And the early results indicated that those in the low saturated fat group, and especially those eating 16 grams or less, had a significant drop in relapse rates after just one year, a 95 % drop after five years. And remember, this is way before there were any disease-modifying therapies.

So this is a time if you were diagnosed with MS, you were basically told, that’s it, it’s nothing to do, just go home and do your best. So it must have been really exciting. The trial continued for an incredible 34 years. And at the end, those in the low saturated fat group remained mainly well with limited disease progression compared to the other group. Because out of those who were still alive, they had much more severe disease progression and disability. And he concluded that this consuming a lower level of saturated fat and a higher level of polyunsaturated fats was particularly important as they supported this anti-inflammatory pathways. So I just wanted to touch on about saturated fat, which is really abundant in the Western diet.

So it’s found in processed foods in the form of palm oil, coconut oil, cocoa butter, in animal fats, and in all sorts of meat products as well, whether or not that’s red meat, processed meat, even poultry. And they’re mainly found in what’s called long-chain fatty acids. So these are really stable and stiff fats. You may have heard of ones like lauric acid or radonic acid.

And they’re solid at room temperature, but they’re also mainly solid at body temperature as well. And this is important when it comes to cell membranes. So cell membranes are the thin outer layer that are keeping the contents inside the cell. our cells are constantly turning over throughout the body. Some are faster than others.

Karen Lee (16:27.106)

And when this happens, a new cell membrane is formed using the fats it gains from the food that we eat. So if you have a high amount of saturated fat in the diet, it gets incorporated into the cell membrane. Now we need a little bit in there because it helps with the structure of the cell. But if you have too much, the membrane becomes really rigid and sticky and it reduces its ability to function properly. And the cells tend to clump together. And this promotes an areas of cell degeneration. Now this obviously applies to all cells in the body, but specifically for MS, this includes cells in the myelin sheath, in our neurons and in our immune cells. Now polyunsaturated fatty acids or this PUFA here, they’re fluid at room temperature and at body temperature. And so when they get incorporated into cell membranes, they tend to be more flexible and enable them to function better.

So the cells actually regenerate with healthier, less inflammatory fats. So I hope that that kind of sort of helps you understand that. So I’m just gonna go back to a little bit more research here. So hopefully you’ve heard about the Holism Study. So this was started back in 2011 by Professor George Jelinek and his team at the Neuroepidemiology Unit in Melbourne in Australia.

And they were set up in order to look at the modifiable lifestyle risk factors of people who live with MS. So he’s looking at what can be changed to reduce the risk of progression and help to manage the disease. And this includes participants from all around the world who complete evaluation questionnaires about the diet and lifestyle and things that they’re doing that affect their MS. And it’s created this huge database from which over 40 different peer review papers have been reviewed. one of the things that’s really important is this is independent on bias research. So it’s not funded by any pharmaceutical companies, which a lot of research is. specifically for the diet side of things,

Karen Lee (18:47.246)

Some of the headlines is that they found that when you eat a low saturated fat, high polyunsaturated fat diet, there’s a 42 % less chance of disability. And really interestingly is that when we supplement with flaxseed oil, there’s a 60 % reduction in relapse rates, which is quite phenomenal when you consider that a lot of DMTs or disease modifying therapies or even the more powerful ones, that’s the kind of figures that you get with that. And this latest study that came out from the Holism, or using the data, focused on just over 600 people, and they were looking at the relationship between their diet when the study started and what they’ve been eating as they’ve gone along, compared to where they are at the assessment date to monitor the disease progression and they followed up every two and a half years. So this is one and a half years. So we’re getting at some really good long data. And what was found was that frequent fish consumption and omega-3 supplementation was strongly associated with improved quality of life and reduced disease activity and disability. The healthy consumption of fruit and vegetables and healthy dietary fats predicted no, I’ve just said that, sorry. But those who ate meat and dairy had poorer outcomes. So, and this is really important because it shows that the importance of dietary habits over time. So this comes back to this changing life for life. It’s really important that to just to keep going and eating really great food really that helps reduce the progression of this condition.

Just last couple of bits, because I’m sure you’re fed up with research now. So this one, this study here, this study looked at different types of MS diet, because there are various ones. And I just wanted to highlight the fact that both the Mediterranean style diet and the swank diet were mentioned as having some good evidence and being nutritionally balanced, whereas others didn’t fare as well. This one from the using the UK Biobank.

Karen Lee (21:12.974)

which sourced a huge number of thousands of people, they found that Mediterranean-style diets that included oily fish had a protective effect for people with MS. And then this study in Italy, rather unsurprisingly, they looked at the Mediterranean diet and they found that it was easier for people to follow and also those that did follow it had less disease severity. This was very small study, but interestingly, it really focused on fibre as being important, which is really good for gut health. I haven’t focused on gut health in this webinar tonight because Sam and myself will be covering the living well life in November. So I’ve left it out for today. But the Mediterranean diet is the most well-researched and highest ranking of all the dietary patterns. And the overcoming MS diet is very similar.

And the research for people with MS is consistent with the growing consensus on the importance of diet on the brain health for everyone. And this rise in the Western diet is going alongside the rise in chronic health conditions, as I’ve mentioned, including other neurodegenerative diseases like Alzheimer’s, dementia, and Parkinson’s disease, and increasing levels of depression and other mental health problems in the general population. A brain healthy diet emphasizes foods such as fruits and vegetables, whole grains, healthy fats and healthy proteins. And this is an AI summary I put into Google. What is a brain healthy diet? And this is what it came up with. So this information, it’s really mainstream now. You know, it’s not a fringe or alternative movement, which I hope you find reassuring. So let’s dive into what we’re going to be eating. So go first with my favourite, which is fresh fruits and vegetables. So you might be surprised to hear that just 29 % of adults in the UK hit the five a day target. And that’s actually supposed to be good apparently. It is worse in some other countries as well, but it’s still a real challenge. But fruits and vegetables are an amazing source of powerful nutrients that help support the body and reduce inflammation.

Karen Lee (23:36.522)

And there’s so many to choose from that even the fussy of eaters can find something to enjoy. And don’t forget that herbs and spices count in this group as well. So they’re packed full of vitamins, minerals and phytonutrients. So the really healthy compounds and every color carries different properties that support the body. And this makes eating the rainbow every day not only good for the taste buds, but great for the body too. And one particular group of compounds, which is polyphenols, and also great for the microbiome. Fresh produce can be more expensive. So do try to buy what’s in season because when there’s a good harvest or something, then there’s just more available at better prices. But frozen fruit and vegetable is also a great option because they’re frozen very soon after harvest, so it retains the nutrients well. But also, if you’re low in time and energy, you don’t have to spend time doing lots of peeling and chopping as well. Whole grains are included. And on this slide, I’ve included both gluten and non-gluten containing grains. Now there’s no conclusive connection between gluten and MS specifically, but we know that some people like to avoid it. It could be due to another autoimmune condition or an intolerance, or you might just want to do a just in case policy and avoid it whole grains are very different to refined white grains and they’re full of complex carbohydrates which are a pack full of fiber. They also give us calories for energy. There’s also lots of minerals, protein, healthy fats even and there are so many to choose from. So there’s lots and lots of different foods that you can make a variety of meals from.

And then beans and pulses or beans and lentils. This is another really, really healthy group. This is where you can get your main sources of plant protein from. They also contain minerals and fiber and lots of complex carbohydrate where we get energy from and polyphenols and other antioxidants as well. And I love beans and lentils because they are super cheap and tinned are okay to eat as well, which is great.

Karen Lee (26:00.066)

Because it means you don’t have to spend hours soaking and cooking them. So you can knock up some really quick and easy meals. And research tells us they’re actually one of the healthiest foods that you can eat. A paper that was published in 2023 concluded that by eating beans regularly or every day, you can reduce obesity, it reduces low grade inflammation, and it may play a role in immune related disease risk, managing immune problems. Now, one of the things I would say, however, is if you’re not used to eating a high-fiber diet, then you might want to go a little bit carefully on beans to start off with, because they do have a win factor. And to start off with, you’re used to them, you’re used to eating more fiber, and your microbiome has finished partying on them, then things should settle down.

So let’s go on to healthy fats. So there’s lots of whole food sources of this mainly in nuts and seeds, but also fruits like avocados and olives. They have a higher levels of unsaturated fats, including omega-3 and omega-6 essential fatty acids, but they also contain protein and fiber, fat soluble vitamins and other antioxidants as well. And as I mentioned, flaxseed oil.

The Holism study showed a fantastic reduction in relapse rates when we supplemented with that. You can also use extra virgin olive oil in your food as well, in your meals, and that’s high in polyphenols as well, so it’s got that antioxidant effect. But just make sure that you don’t directly heat these oils. They need to be added on rather than put on direct heat in a pan.

You can also eat oily fish three times a week if you would like. And by oily fish we mean sardines, mackerel, anchovies, salmon, herrings and trout. Smaller fish are better because toxins and heavy metals can build up in the larger fish due to pollution in the water. So try to go for the smaller ones. And in all of these foods, there is saturated fat in there, but there’s a lot more unsaturated fat. And like I say,

Karen Lee (28:22.19)

You need it. We can’t avoid saturated fat in our food, and nor do we want to, because we need to make sure that we have some. It’s just in much lower amounts. And as for other foods, well there’s fish and seafood, which are a great protein source. There’s lots of different types of fermented foods, like sauerkraut, kimchi, miso. They provide gut benefits, can help digestion, and also add flavor.

It’s another one though that if you’re not used to fermented foods to build them up gradually rather than just sort of eating five different types because you might get some unexpected side effects. There’s also lots of things to add in flavour. So there’s different types of pickles and vinegars. And then on the drink side of things, there’s tea and coffee is absolutely fine and cocoa powder.

Cocoa has got a high level of flavonoids, which is a type of antioxidant and magnesium as well, the mineral. And interestingly, there was a small study done in 2019 that showed that people with MS who had a hot chocolate every day for six weeks had improved fatigue. So that’s good news, mind you, it might not be hot chocolate weather today. And also it seems that a moderate amount of alcohol seems to have some benefits as well.

then what to avoid? Well, we want to avoid meat, especially red and processed meat, including poultry. It’s high in saturated fat. There’s no fibre in there at all. It promotes inflammatory compounds. as we’ve seen, the research shows there’s more disability and disease progression with people who eat meat. Dairy, we want to avoid as well. And that’s dairy from cow, goat or sheep.

There is saturated fat in a lot of dairy, but it’s not just the fat. is debate still out about what the issue is, but it’s thought that butyrophilin, which is a protein in dairy, is very similar to protein on oligodendrocytes on the myelin sheath. And when the immune system is overwhelmed and confused, it can start attacking…

Karen Lee (30:39.726)

proteins which are similar. So it starts attacking our own protein rather than the one that’s being taken from dairy. And this process is called molecular mimicry. So if we don’t have a dairy, then that molecular mimicry is avoided. Egg yolks are also avoided. They’re high in saturated fat as well, but egg whites are fine and you’ll find some protein in there.

And then there’s all of the shop bought pastries, cakes, snacks, all that’s fast food. I mean, we know that it’s packed with saturated or adulterated fats, which have this negative inflammatory effect in the body. And coconut, now it’s promoted as being healthy, but it’s really high in saturated fat. So we want to avoid that as much as possible. we can, coconut water, coconut sugar are fine so you can include those. Whilst cocoa powder is okay, chocolate itself is set with cocoa butter which is highly saturated so that’s off the menu as well.

Now, again, I’m not going to into detail on this because Sam is going to be discussing this at Live Well Live in November, but we get asked this question about intermittent fasting quite a lot. So increasing research shows that there is some benefit from timing when you eat. There is a theory that it can promote remyelination, but that’s all in animal models at the minute and it’s not being translated into human, so that’s work in progress. But what we do know is that it can help inflammation through reducing what’s called oxidative stress. It stimulates autophidy, which is the body’s internal recycling system. So it gives it time to process and remove dead and damaged cells. It’s a bit like internal spring cleaning. And that includes our immune cells as well. And it does seem to have a neuroprotective effect.

Karen Lee (32:52.27)

There’s lots of different types of intermittent fasting. You could do the 5-2 method, which is eating normal five days a week and then limiting calories on two days or time-restrictive eating. A lot of it depends upon what works for you and your pattern and your work and everything. But as long as there’s like a minimum of 12 hours between meals. So if you eat at seven in the evening, don’t eat until at least seven the following morning, then try and sort of do a little bit longer than that if you can. And then finally for me, just there’s so much information and inspiration available from Overcoming MS. So there’s plenty of resources on the website. You’ll find resources and help on the LiveWell Hub. Of course, there’s the Overcoming MS Cookbook, which we’re going to find out about in a minute. And then there’s our events.

And as I’ve mentioned, Living Well Live is coming up on the 15th of November and tickets are on sale. So if you haven’t grabbed yours yet, please do get one. It’s going to be an amazing event and you can join us either online or in person. Also on the website, there’s a real food for real budgets resource. I’m very into this, partly because it’s some of the work that’s from me.

But there’s some really great ideas and suggestions and recipe ideas as well for eating, not taking up much money, but eating really well. And then if you haven’t joined your local circle, then please do. It’s often meetups are arranged where you can share food or just ask questions with people. And everybody’s always got a great recipe to share. And if you’re not sure about cooking, if you’re lacking in cooking skills,

Then have a look and see if you’ve got a community kitchen nearby you. I know that there’s quite a few in cities around the UK, but they’re also found in other countries as well. I’ve found some in the US and in Europe. They often offer classes and some of them may be free, depends where the funding comes from. Then there’s now loads of whole food plant-based cookery books available, there’s YouTube channels. And I’ve just mentioned here, a lot of people are very keen on Ashley Madden’s recipes.

Karen Lee (35:11.934)

but also I’ve got some recipes in my books as well. Okay, that’s enough from me now. So I would like to invite Ingrid to the stage and a bit please.

Ingrid Adelsberger (35:15)

Thank you, Karen, for having me and for giving us all this great information. And thank you, Overcoming MS, also that I am part of this webinar tonight for us. But if you watch it back, then maybe it’s a different time when you’re seeing us. For all of you who don’t know me, my name is Ingrid Adelsberger. I am a health coach and also an overcoming MS program facilitator, and I’m the editor of the OMS cookbook.

I’m also live also someone living with MS and with the overcoming MS diet or the entire program for already 14 years. And I really know firsthand what it feels like to live with that program and, and MS. So there are struggles, but they’re also really great things. So if you’re new to our community, then please know that it’s a wonderful community.

 

And please also be rest assured that you are putting so much better food into your body compared to so many people out there. So a little bit about myself. I worked in the corporate world for over 10 years when I was diagnosed with MS in 2011. And when I was working on the OMS cookbook, I realized that I really wanted to shift directions. So I became a health coach. And first I did a six months program, but I felt that I wanted more information to serve the people better. So I decided to do a master’s in integrated health and wellness. I’m kind of like to dive deeper in all the information that is out there around health and wellness. And then we, my husband and I, we moved from New York to Los Angeles, and this is where my daughter is born.

Ingrid Adelsberger (37:19.412)

And then later we took the plunge and went back to Europe and now we’re living in my hometown Vienna, Austria, where I’m also right now. so why was I invited to be tonight here on this virtual stage with Karen? It probably has something to do with the overcoming MS cookbook. and so

And as mentioned, I lived with this disease for a while and I know all the struggles and the ups and downs. So Karen, maybe next slide please. So we can talk a little bit about those struggles that I was facing when I was early on. So one of the things that was really… No problem.

Don’t bear with me. I’ve just been technically challenged. There you go.

Thank you. So one of the things was really the label reading. It was so stressful and exhausting. I didn’t know what to eat. And then I was cooking every night. know, first I was, you know, I was 30 at the time that I got diagnosed. So I was eating out, living in New York city. And then suddenly I had to stay home most of the time and cook myself. And even though putting in all the effort, effort.

The food was pretty bland and boring. So I realized that I wasn’t the only one when I went in 2013 to the first Overcoming MS retreat that was outside of Australia and New Zealand in the UK. And then I met other people that felt the same way. So it gave me hope and also good ideas that the cookbook has to happen. And that’s why it’s also a proud source cookbook.

Ingrid Adelsberger (39:07.438)

because we wanted all the people to be involved in that cookbook. And if you’re new to the diet, then I really hope that you feel like you’re not alone because this is really how I felt and there are really many other people that also feel that way. So I needed good recipes. I wanted to have good food and I realized that other people wanted it too. So as I said, from the community for the community that was really the things that we wanted with the Overcoming MS cook. Next slide, please. And I don’t want to focus only on the struggles I had, but really on the practical tips. That’s what I’m hoping that I can bring to you tonight a little bit. So what are the things that have been helping me? And maybe one of them you know already, like batch cooking, or you know many of the other ideas and resources.

But batch cooking is really something when you need to have nutritious, good Overcoming MS friendly food. Maybe you don’t have the time to cook every night. Maybe there’s somebody out there that’s also a mom like I am, then time is tight, you can’t cook every night something from scratch. So storing it in the fridge and or in the freezer, depending on do you want to eat it in a couple of days again, or do you want to eat it next week? then it’s really important. And I’d really try not to make meals only for one night. I always try to have at least two dinners, maybe one extra lunch for the family. Meal planning. That was really a game changer for me. It was actually the idea of my husband because our daughter is a pretty picky eater. then, so there needed to be a lot of time to go for her. And then there’s also lot of time to cook OMS friendly meals.

So we had to come up with something that works for all of us. And so one of the things is, for example, we always have a taco Tuesday. So I have corn tortillas and the rest of the family has wheat tortillas, but we have beans. Sometimes we also have fish, but we share all the rest. And I think it was really important for me to find recipes that the entire family likes and that are also OMS friendly. Then I think it’s very important to always have emergency food on you.

Ingrid Adelsberger (41:22.956)

That could mean that you always have a treat with you, either something that you make by yourself, or there are a couple of brands that you can find something that’s Overcoming MS friendly in stores. But it could also mean that you are invited to a dinner and you’re not sure if there is anything for you to eat. So you want to make sure maybe you want to bring a side dish or something. Or it could also mean that you have Overcoming MS friendly crackers with you.

But it’s really important that you don’t get in situation where you’re really hungry and then maybe you make a decision that you would regret and you wouldn’t make if you weren’t hungry. There is one more suggestion. Like you can also always eat before if you were invited and you don’t know if there’s food. But personally, I don’t really like that one because I don’t like to not eat when everybody else is eating. So it’s kind of not very social, but it’s definitely one reason to make sure that you’re not hungry and then end up eating something you don’t want to eat.

The other thing is know where you can order something from or where are the places that you can eat out. When I lived in New York or LA, it was really easy for me. The U.S. had so many more options earlier than Vienna, for example, had. But now over the years that I’m back, I have found my places and I found a couple of places where I can order from. And maybe it’s not like 20 places and I have three dishes at each of these places, but I think it’s one thing and it’s just, are those nights where you can’t cook or you don’t want to cook or whatever the reason is, but you want something. You want to be sure that you have something if you can’t cook. And then also have your favorite fast go-to meals. So for me, for example, that’s brown rice and a protein, either like a salmon or chickpeas and then some vegetables and a salad on the side.

For me, I have just put some soy sauce and flax oil on it and I really love that. But maybe you want to spice it up with a little extra sauce and it could be something like a tahini sauce with tahini, olive oil or flax oil, lemon, salt and pepper. And it’s really easy and done in a minute and it’s really, really good. So that could be just some helpful tips maybe that can make life easier for you too. Next slide, Karen, please.

Ingrid Adelsberger (43:43.808)

I wanted to share a few of my favorite recipes, maybe that can also help you and inspire you and maybe also look for something else. So one thing from the overcoming OMS cookbook is the Ghanian fish stew and it’s something that was very early on one of recipes that I really love. And I actually made it today because I forgotten it. And as I was preparing for this presentation tonight, I felt like, why not make that again? And it was lovely again. And it’s so easy. It has four ingredients. So it’s really quick and easy and it’s really delicious. Karen’s book, for example, I looked for an oil-free granola for such a long time. I really love to have oatmeal in the morning quite often, but it’s nice to sometimes spice it up with something else.

Oil-free granola is really something that I wanted to have, so Karen greatly has it. And also, I was trying to find something healthy for my daughter. I believe that children, they eat things that we wouldn’t necessarily eat every day, but I always feel like you want to move the needle just a little bit and see what can you do. So one thing I found were lentil burgers on this website that’s called Healthy Little Foodies, and our whole family loves it.

And it’s not super easy, but it’s pretty easy to make and she actually likes it. And it was so important for me to introduce lentils for her because we know Karen has mentioned that earlier, they are high in fiber, they are so healthy. So I wanted her to have something that she will have with lentils. And that was one thing that I found and that really works well for us. And then last but not least, I wanted to also say I have Ashley Madden’s book. She’s somebody that’s within the Overcoming MS community as well. And she follows the diet and even goes a step stricter or stricter or further. And she doesn’t include any oil. Antipathia protein salad is really one that I love very much. So I can only recommend her cookbook as well. And then I wanted to leave you with one thought. Nobody is perfect. And…

Ingrid Adelsberger (45:57.108)

I am not perfect and you don’t have to be, but consistency beats perfection. So if there is a mistake for whatever reason, know, intentionally or by accident, because there is an ingredient in something that you happen to eat, don’t beat yourself up and just make sure that the next meal is a good one again. And the more great meals, the more good meals we have, that’s really the important thing. So the consistency is what we want.

So on that note, I think we’re going to go to some questions. What do think, Karen?

Yep. I just wanted to make sure I stopped sharing the screen. think I have. Technology gets me every time. That was great Ingrid. Thank you so much. It’s really interesting to know the background about the overcoming MS cookbook. And there’s so many great recipes in there. You did a grand job. Okay. So yes, questions.

Karen Lee (47:05.282)

So I think we’re gonna start with you, aren’t we? You’ve got the first one. Yes, so the pre-submitted questions.

Exactly. So the first question that we got was why are some saturated fats okay? For example, olive oil and avocados, but others are not allowed at all, such as coconut. And I understand coconut is quite high in saturated fat, but why isn’t it recommended even in small amounts? So first of all, I think it’s important to know that pretty much every fat has saturated and unsaturated fats.

So when we talk about having unsaturated fat, there is always a little bit of saturated fat part of it. But we want to take a look at what the fat is. So Karen talked about this already, mono unsaturated fats or polyunsaturated fat. And so as an example, avocado has a lot of, it also has a little bit of omega-3 fatty acids, but it also has some fiber and other vitamins.

It does have a little bit of saturated fat, of course, but if you look at the whole avocado, there was so much more good stuff in it than there is less good stuff such as the saturated fat. And extra virgin olive oil is the same. There’s a little bit of saturated fat, but most of it is really good. And it’s important to say that it’s good for brain health, good for health overall. So that’s why.

Some things are okay versus others are not because the main stuff of whatever the product is, for example coconut oil, has mainly saturated fat and that’s something that we don’t want to have.

Ingrid Adelsberger (48:47.252)

So I think the second question is for you, Karen.

Yes, yes. So the question that I’ve got here is, are there better and worse whole grains? Which is a really interesting question actually. So the answer is really, it just depends on you, I think. So when we’re talking about whole grains, we’re talking about obviously whole wheat flours and which contains gluten.

And there’s lots of, so you can have whole wheat pasta, whole wheat bread, all of that side of things. But then there’s lots of other grains as well, like quinoa and amaranth and millet. There’s lots and lots to choose from. And the key is that it’s whole. So where we come into the problem is when grains are being refined. And so that’s when you get your white flour and white products basically, because they,

then what’s been taken away is all of the good stuff. So all of, most of the fiber and the healthy oils and the protein and all of that is in the brown part in the husk and the whole wheat. Whereas rice, it’s literally just energy. So that’s the starchy kind of core of it.

So what’s good, it just depends on you. Like I mentioned, some people need to or prefer to avoid gluten and therefore you’re gonna go along those gluten-free grains more. Personally, I try to, with a whole grain side, I look to eat more ancient grains like spelt or emma and I try to buy organic.

Karen Lee (50:38.902)

One of the problems which is supposed to be a practice is supposed to be an outlawed is by spraying grains crops just before they’re harvested with pesticides and everything. there’s still quite a lot of residue on the crop. And so that practice is supposed to have been outlawed. But if you’re buying organic, if you can, then you’re going to avoid that. So yeah.

So just go with whatever you like and do experiments as well because there’s so many different options. And I think one of the things that I love exploring is using like pea flour or chickpea flour, millet flour, all of these different legumes that can be turned into a flour that you can create all sorts of interesting dishes with. So there’s a lot to practice with. Okay.

Right, hope that answered the question. Right, Ingrid, back to you.

Yes, thank you. So the question is, struggle with weight loss and find it difficult to consume enough calories. What can I be doing? Are vegan protein shakes okay? So first of all, I want to tell you that when I started on the Overcoming MS Diet, I didn’t struggle with weight loss, but I did struggle about one year after I had my daughter because I think through breastfeeding,

I lost so much weight and I struggled really to keep that weight back on. So I also had to find ways to make sure that I am okay. And it took me a few years to get back to like a healthy weight. But what happened for, what helped me is like avocados, tahini, nut butters, legumes, all of them is really good to add to the meals. Obviously some of them are high in saturated fat, but it really does help to add them.

Ingrid Adelsberger (52:32.864)

And maybe it also means that you have to eat more fruit-lovingly or have to eat more. As far as the vegan protein shakes, so Overcoming MS recommends not to use the store-bought ones, because very often they are high in sugar and they have additives that you don’t want. But you can actually make quite a few good protein shakes by yourself with things like nut butters, banana, maybe some berries, add in some chia seeds or hemp seeds or ground flax seed, whatever you want. And that way you can make your own protein shake. And maybe you’re thinking right now you would rather buy some, but if you throw all of that in the blender, it really doesn’t take that long. So it maybe takes a minute or two, I think, to make them. Karen, do you have anything to add?

No, think with protein shakes there are some slightly better versions around now, but I always think that homemade ones taste better. the protein shakes can be grainy, I find anyway, but it just depends. Again, it comes down to time for a lot of people. yeah, they just…

Yeah, and the whole food.

Karen Lee (53:56.65)

Just read the ingredients and work out what it is that’s in there. But yeah, absolutely homemade is always best. Now you’ve got the next question as well, but I’ve noticed on the live questions coming in that there’s a few more questions about flaxseed as there always is. So do you want to answer that bit of your flaxseed question and then we’ll just make sure we’ve got the other ones covered as well?

Sure, sounds good. So I know that there are some people that don’t tolerate flax oil very well. Are there any alternatives? And which one would you suggest? And in what quantities? And maybe, Karen, you can help me about the quantities because I don’t remember exactly. But I think you could, for example, use the flax seeds and I think six tablespoons or something like that would be the nine actually, okay, is the equivalent of like the amount that overcoming OMS suggests for flax oil. So that’s really a lot. And for some people that may be a little bit too much fiber and maybe it’s also, you don’t know where to add that. So I always put in my oatmeal in the morning. I actually put the oil and a little bit of the brown flax seeds because I think they’re good for fiber, but I wouldn’t want to put in six or nine tablespoons. I think that’s a little too much.

But there are alternatives. Also, chia seeds is really good, hemp seeds. But please know that they have less omega-3 compared to the flax seeds. There are algae-based omega-3 supplements, so that can also help. But I think the really important thing is to know that the flax oil is the most concentrated when it comes to the omega-3. And that is the reason why we taking the flax oil. you can get something else. You don’t have to take the flax oil if you really don’t like it.

Karen Lee (55:57.646)

Yeah, I was going to say, think one of the problems with flaxseed oil is it’s because it’s so volatile and it can really just sometimes catch the, you know, esophagus as it goes down. so, and that’s actually a good thing because it just shows how active it is. yeah, if you can hide it in food, that’s the best way. I’m not one for glugging. I like to drizzle it on my food.

And if you really do struggle, then just have a small amount. So you don’t have to have the whole dose in one go. You know, it can be throughout the day. So you could just put a tiny bit in some soup or in a smoothie and then have a little bit later on. So spread it out if you can. But the other thing about ground flaxseed, it’s great to add in, you know, the odd tablespoon. but it has got a really high amount of fibre in there, but it’s also got other properties as well, lots of lignans and different types of compounds, which nine tablespoons really is, you know, that’s hardcore. It’s not ideal for most people. So the other other Flaxseed questions that we had, so someone’s buying the oil and drinking it directly. Well, if you want to, you can.

But like I say, I was recommending it in food and the capsules that the problem with the capsule, there’s two problems with the capsules. One is that you have to have a lot of the capsules to get the equivalent amount. That makes it very expensive. I think it’s probably about 10 capsules. So that’s quite a lot. And they’re not cheap. But also is the fact that you don’t know the quality of the oil in the capsule, basically.

So one of the benefits of actually having the oil is that because it is so volatile, it goes off quite quickly. And when it’s off, you cannot have it. So it’s safe to know that you’re having a quality oil and it’s going to be much more active. yeah, with capsules, you just can’t tell. I mean, if you’re away overnight and you can’t take a bottle of oil with you, then obviously it can be a useful substitute.

Karen Lee (58:16.078)

And yeah, and the other one was the amount of flaxseed. So I think we covered that, we? Just checking this no more. Yeah, okay. I think we covered the flaxseed one. Okay, so my one’s next. This is a really, really interesting question and I’m really pleased it’s come up actually. So this person says that they have osteoporosis. I’m sorry to hear that. And they’ve asked, is the overcoming MS diet good for this? And do I need to adapt it in a certain way? and obviously they have MS as well. So people with MS are at increased risk of osteoporosis. So part of that is linked to if you’ve got this low grade inflammation, that also affects your bone density and then increases your risk of fractures. But also, especially in the past, people with MS were told not to exercise.

So if you have limited mobility or if you’re not moving that much, not doing much exercise, then that also increases your risk of getting osteoporosis. And there are some medications that can also affect bone health as well. One of those being steroids. Obviously they can be used as, you know, really useful as emergency first aid for an acute relapse.

But if they’re taken for a long time, they can have this negative effect. there’s mainly, there’s four things that we need for good bone health. So calcium, vitamin D, which obviously we’re covering through supplementation, as I mentioned in the program, not too much vitamin D, which is why we need to keep an eye, make sure our levels are within those parameters. And then that will be the right amount. Protein and weight-bearing exercise, okay? So our bones need to be challenged, they need to be broken down and then built up again for strength. So within the Overcoming MS Diet, there’s lots and lots of plant sources of calcium and of protein. You just need to make sure that you’re eating a range of foods and you’re eating enough of them. So for calcium, for example, things like almonds, sesame seeds, chickpeas,

Karen Lee (01:00:38.382)

So if you like falafels, you’ve got chickpeas and tahini in there, or hummus, that’s really good for your bones. Calcium-set tofu. So not only have you got a good dose of calcium in there, but you’ve also got a good complete plant protein as well. And leafy greens are packed with calcium, as are cruciferous vegetables like broccoli. And flaxseed.

You know, so they’ve all got compounds, calcium in there. And then protein, again, lots of the foods I’ve just mentioned have got protein in, but other things like quinoa and nuts and seeds. Obviously, if you eat fish, then you’re getting a good amount of protein. And even if you’re eating like tinned sardines, they often have the bones. and they’re ever so soft and obviously they’ve got calcium in as well. So that’s another source. all of those, just as long as you’re eating enough, then you will be getting the food or the nutrients that you need for bone health. And then weight bearing exercise is really important. So that doesn’t necessarily mean that you have to go out for a run because you might not be able to but you might be able to go to the gym to do some weight-bearing exercises, but even like resistance bands and you can get them, you can do exercises in a chair or at home. Another version, if you’re not going to the gym, whether or not you haven’t got one near you or it’s just not possible, is like putting a backpack on with some ice blocks or something in, something a bit heavier, and even just kind of like jumping out of the door so that you’re getting some impact. So they’re all little ways, but you can find lots of things on YouTube about exercises for bone health. So I hope that helps answer your question. Okay, what are we onto now?

Ingrid Adelsberger (01:02:46.83)

I think the next one is for you as well, Karen. sorry. What’s the reasonable amount of sugar to have each day? And I would love to hear your answer on this one.

Okay, all right, well if someone who’s got a sweet tooth, I’d love to say yeah, whatever No, you probably say as little as possible.

Well, think sugar is another one of those kind of generic words. So what we want to really pay attention to is added sugar. So sugar is found in the food that we eat, in naturally, and it’s all wrapped up. So if you think about fruits, they’re packed full of sugar, but they’re also packed full of fiber and nutrients and all the rest of it. So it comes in this lovely sweet bundle.

And but when you’re eating foods that are either being manufactured away from the home or even when you’re baking, obviously you you you’re then talking about added sugar and that can come as granulated sugar or as maple syrup or or you know all of these sweeteners. And there isn’t specific research for MS and sugar. However, we do know that a lot of a lot of added sugar can fuel.

Karen Lee (01:04:02.764)

this low grade inflammation, is what we’re trying to get on top of. So there isn’t a set amount, but it’s about being mindful about how much you’re having. when you’re, for example, when you’re baking and we’re now mainly making plant-based cakes and cookies and things, and actually the science isn’t quite as exact as normal cakes. So you can just use less sugar.

You can use slightly healthier options by adding in fruit, dried fruit, type of thing. Maple syrup, you can use a small amount of that. But the other thing about sugar is the fact that it’s a taste bud thing. So once your taste buds, and your taste buds turn over about every 21 days, so something that doesn’t taste sweet to start off with, if you’re changing the way that you’re eating, then suddenly the sweetness starts coming through and really sweet cakes and bakes just become horrible, which I never thought would be a thing, but it is, because like I say, I love sweet food. I guess my answer is, don’t be scared of putting a little bit of sugar in if it means that you’re going to enjoy your food. You don’t want to feel like you’re missing out because this is a way of eating for life. But just be mindful and try and reduce it as much as you can. Okay.

A great answer, Karen, because you were talking about not only the number but also about enjoying the food and also loving something that you will do for the rest of your life. So I think that’s equally important as the number of the sugar.

Yeah, we don’t want to miss out. Exactly. miss out on lovely, lovely things.

Ingrid Adelsberger (01:05:48.398)

Nobody likes foam wall.

So I think the next one is mine about cheese alternatives. So the person asking the question says that he or she likes Applewood vegan cheese, which has coconut oil in it. So what can we recommend to avoid this one and for something else? So I personally don’t know that brand, but I assume is something that is really similar to biting into a real piece of cheese, like some dairy cheese.

And so I think the difficult thing about cheese is that it’s really hard to find something that feels like real cheese. the reason for that is that it makes it hard because of the saturated fat. And because we can’t have too much saturated fat, that’s why we cannot have those vegan cheeses that are available. As you said correctly, most of them have coconut oil or other ingredients that we don’t want. And I know this is really disappointing. I’m sorry. But…

However, you can make something like a soft cheese. And so you can, for example, use almonds or cashews even better, or tofu and nutritional yeast is the good and important ingredients, and maybe some garlic powder. And that kind of makes it then to have that cheesy flavor, cheesy taste. And it gets very similar, I would say, in terms of having that satisfaction and the taste.

But I think if you’re looking for something to bite into it and you feel like it’s cheese, then that’s a little harder to make. But I hope that some of those simple, I mean, it’s a really simple recipe, know, like soaked cashews, maybe some tofu, nutritional yeast, garlic powder, salt and pepper. And I think you’re pretty golden. I hope that will help you and I hope it will satisfy what you’re looking for. Okay. I think.

Ingrid Adelsberger (01:07:48.842)

We’re going to go to live questions because I think we have quite a bit of live questions.

Yeah, yeah, so that’s what I was just looking at. Okay, well, I’ll take this first one. so the question says, it seems like the slides and research are only relevant to relapsing remitting MS rather than primary progressive. Please can you comment on that? I can. And is there any research with regard to diet and primary progressive MS? Okay, so,

Karen Lee (01:08:24.85)

A of the research, a lot of research full stop tends to be done on relapsing and remitting because obviously there’s more people who’ve got that. But I think what we need to be mindful of is that now MS is being looked at as just one condition. so and a lot of the research is consistent with other brain research, know, and diet and brain health, as I mentioned earlier.

So you may not have like the same levels of inflammation, but it’s still cell degeneration and smoldering MS, another topic that’s going to be talked about at Living Well Live in November is something that is going on in the background for a lot of people. So that is about reducing inflammation, but also supporting cell, the body cells, helping them to regenerate in a healthier way. As I mentioned about the cell membranes, just providing all of these lovely sort of essential nutrients that enable the body to be well and to heal as much as possible. So we’ve seen from the research that it is slowing progression.

Now, I don’t have to hand the breakdowns of people like in the Holism study who have got primary progressive, I don’t have all that to hand. But we can see from that that progression is being slowed through diet. It was shown in the fatigue one and in the quality of life. But also, like I say, we know that anything that helps to stop the degeneration of ourselves and our brain as we age our brains shrink anyway. But with MS we have that as a bit of an advance. we are making sure that those cells don’t degenerate as quickly by eating these types of foods. So it’s a bit of an answer is I know I don’t have any specific studies to hand, but I can have a look and see if there is.

Karen Lee (01:10:37.678)

But I know people within the overcoming MS community who have primary progressive MS and who are doing really well with it as well. So it’s a similar but slightly different process. So yeah, I hope that answers your question. Do you want to do the next?

Sure. So many good questions. could answer many of right? Yeah. So I’m wondering where we draw the line when defining processed food. Store bought bread, homemade sourdough, soy milk, vegan yogurts, tempeh. I’m just never sure when something become processed. So my understanding is there is processed food and there is ultra processed food. So processed food would be already, if you take that apple and chop it and make applesauce out of it. My understanding is that’s already processed, but obviously we do that and it’s okay to do that. You know, if you make applesauce and it’s homemade, then that’s good. If you now have a lot of ingredients that you can’t pronounce, maybe there are E numbers or maybe there are things that you don’t know what they are and you don’t have an ingredient that you know it’s coming from a plant or so then I think it becomes more difficult. And I think that’s where to draw the line. So when you, for example, you say tempeh, my understanding is tempeh is a healthier version of compared to tofu because it is differently processed because it’s fermented. So yes, it’s also processed, but I think that is definitely something that’s okay. And then you have a tempeh that’s just natural or you have a tempeh that has 10 flavors in it and different ingredients and I think then it becomes a little less healthy. So I think it’s okay to have some form of processed food but not ultra processed food and I believe that is over four ingredients. Is that correct, Karen?

Karen Lee (01:12:46.91)

No, well, or more. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I think it’s more about looking at what the ingredients are. Yeah, yeah. Because if you look at a recipe, you know, you’re going to have quite a selection of ingredients with it. But if you if you buy something and it’s got lots of words in it that you don’t understand and lots of, you know, emulsifiers and whatnot, then and how much of it.

Karen Lee (01:13:14.798)

that’s definitely going down the line of ultra-processed. But I want to give you an example. You also give the example of vegan yogurts in your question. And I think there are also some that have tons of sugar and some that don’t have. And one brand that I know Karen and I both love is Soyade. And they have natural one that doesn’t have any sugar. And it’s also processed, right? But it’s, think, a really healthy version of processed food.

Yeah, food processing is just a part of cooking, essentially. It’s when we cross the line. And I think it’s become quite difficult at times to identify because it’s just so part of what’s found in the shops now. You know, there’s items that wouldn’t have been found 10, 20, 30 years ago.

I do find the bit about bread interesting though. So homemade sourdough bread or even sourdough bread that’s made in a bakery essentially is going to have four ingredients in it, which is going to be the flour, the starter, some salt and water. And that’s essentially all that should be in bread. Sometimes a little bit of olive oil is added in. It depends on the type of bread. But if you pick up a, like a a plastic wrapped squashy bread in the supermarket that takes like four weeks to go mouldy, that has got lots of other additives into it and the way that it’s processed. So with bread renewal, you want a whole grain bread, the quality does matter. Just try and look for the best that you can, but equally…

Karen Lee (01:14:59.366)

If the plastic wrap bread is what you can afford, then always go for a wholemeal one and a lot of the supermarket branded ones are still affordable. don’t, you know, again, we have to sort of go on what people can manage. But yeah. Okay, right.

one on chocolate? That’s a good question.

Say that again.

Do you want to do the next one on chocolate? That’s a really good question.

Chocolate, right. Sorry, I was just looking at them. Yes. OK. So I think the thing is that everybody loves chocolate so much. It seems hard to avoid it. you know, dark chocolate is being promoted as being healthy, but it still has quite a lot of saturated fat. And in this this person said one square has got four grams, you know, and ultimately, if it’s going to if it’s going to bring you joy.

Karen Lee (01:16:01.192)

And then, then who am I to say don’t have it, you know, because there are flavonoids and other things in there. However, it’s, it’s, it’s how regularly you want to include that compared with other, other foods that you’re eating in that day. So I think the key to it is just being mindful about what it is that you’re eating throughout the day. And if, if that square of chocolate is, is the thing that you need, then you that’s up to you. Okay.

Maybe you want to take the other question, There’s another question about chocolate. You mentioned to treat yourself to a hot chocolate and then later you said to avoid it. Can you please confirm? So I think there is chocolate and cocoa powder.

Karen Lee (01:16:47.68)

Okay, so the hot chocolate made with cocoa powder, okay, so cocoa powder as I say, it’s much lower in saturated fats. It hasn’t got the same level of cocoa butter in it and it’s… Sorry. just got distracted there slightly. It’s got less cocoa fat, cocoa butter in it than chocolate has basically. So yeah, so a hot chocolate, you can make it with some dairy free milk and cocoa powder and that’s what they looked at, not hard chocolate I’m afraid.

So, Karen, not so much time for one two questions. And one thing that I maybe want to pick is I’m struggling with lunch as I’m used to having a sandwich. Are any non-dairy spreads okay? So I can understand that, right? You on the go, maybe out for work. Then it can be really hard to find something, especially when you’re used to having sandwiches. So the dairy-free spreads, I think it depends very much on what the ingredients are.

Ingrid Adelsberger (01:17:56.15)

So first, think hummus is a really good one. So maybe you can find a store bought one that is OMS friendly and that’s okay. Or maybe you once a week, you have time to make one for yourself. And then also there are some spreads that are okay, but others are not because maybe there’s coconut oil in it, or maybe there’s something like canola oil in it or sunflower seeds or sunflower oil or something like that. So maybe then it’s not.

So it really depends on what you have around you and what is available to you that you can have. But I really hope that you find something that works for you. And maybe hummus and a piece of tofu and some vegetables and salads and tomatoes. Maybe it could be something that you can enjoy it compared to what you’ve been having.

Yeah, you’re right. mean, if you’re buying a sandwich in a shop, it’s difficult, even if it’s like a vegan one or a fish one. But I would say, please avoid them as much as you possibly can. if you go into a sandwich shop and they’re making it up for you, then you can ask them to not put it on there. But yeah, hummus is a great spread. Hummus turns up everywhere. So, you could use nut butters as well, unflavoured nut butters and things like that.

Or smoked salmon. I love smoked salmon sandwich. make yourself avocado and smoked salmon. That’s one of my sandwiches if I need a sandwich. So maybe that

Karen Lee (01:19:24.218)

If you can find the almond based cream cheese to go with it, you can go super fancy. Shall we do this one? So in baking, what is the best ingredient to use instead of butter or coconut oil? Do you want to do that one?

Sure. So I use for baking either extra virgin olive oil or I use, apple sauce when it’s something sweet, because that’s a good replacement, for oil as well. Or maybe you can do half hot, whatever the recipe is. And then something that Jack McNulty also told me, if you were able to find, cold pressed or I don’t know if cold pressed it like the, from the first pressing of, rap seed oil. that’s okay too because that’s not canola oil. Because canola oil is deodorized and desensitized and taking away all the good stuff from it. But when you have good rapeseed oil, then that’s okay to use. And that also has a higher smoking point than extra virgin olive oil, for example. And that could be used for baking. I mean, it’s definitely not, it doesn’t have as high of a smoking point than butter or coconut oil. but it definitely has a better one compared to extra virgin olive oil, for example. So, Erin, maybe…

Yeah, avocado oil, I think it’s used in the US quite a bit. That’s okay. It’s not as good as olive oil just because it doesn’t have polyphenols, but it’s a good one on unsaturated fat. I was just going to say the smoking point when you’re baking isn’t quite as important. So because that’s with the direct heat. But yeah, olive oil, cold pressed oils, when they’re in the oven, ambient heat, it’s not direct heat.

Karen Lee (01:21:10.222)

and they work really well. yeah, fruits, sweet potato, all of those things are all really good. Yogurt also, so yogurt can also be used for a cake. So maybe we have time for one last question, Karen. Which one would like to pick?

Well, I just wanted to go back to the, was actually two questions. I don’t know I’ve got time to do them. They were on the pre-submitted ones. Okay, have one minute left. Okay, okay. I’ll do super quick. Okay, one question was about no dairy products, about menopause. Just to say that I’ve already mentioned about the calcium sources. So there’s plenty there, but also,

Karen Lee (01:21:54.542)

Soy products are actually very beneficial for perimenopausal and menopausal women. They contain different, these healthy phytoestrogens that can help balance the, or reduce these fluctuations of estrogen that are circulating, can induce hot flashes, also really good source of protein as well, helps with bone health. So.

If you have two or three portions of soy products a day, that’s actually recommended for menopause. So that’s that one I just wanted to say. And the other one was just about iron. Someone’s got a low iron level. Now that might not be due to your diet because there’s just as many people who have low iron levels who are meat eaters compared to non-meat eaters. So if you’re concerned, please go and see your GP. There are some tips to help you absorb iron from your food.

One is to avoid tea, coffee and caffeinated drinks. So any, I don’t know what they’re called, these, yeah, boosting drinks while you’re eating. yeah, that’s the one. An hour before or after, because that will interfere with your iron absorption. And then if you have some kind of lemon or vinegar, add it to your greens or your lentils. That citric acid or acetic acid will actually help you absorb the iron better as well. So they’re just top tips. But like I say, if you have got a low iron level and lots of people do, no matter what their dietary pattern is, then please talk to your doctor about that. Okay, okay, we’ve definitely gone over. I think we need to stop. There’s always so much to cover.

So thank you so much Ingrid. Let me just go back to make sure that I’m covering all the things I need to.

Ingrid Adelsberger (01:23:53.672)

Maybe let me say a few thank yous and then maybe you can do a few things. So thank you everybody for staying with us because I know it’s been quite a long webinar and there was tons of information, great information, but thank you so much for being with us. Before we wrap

Ingrid Adelsberger (01:24:10.708)

Up this webinar, we want to share and highlight a few useful resources and exciting events that we have coming here at Overcoming MS. And they’re all designed to help you to continue building on what we have covered today. So we’re really happy to be hosting Living Well Live, which is Overcoming MS, one-day community lifestyle event, bringing together over 200 people in person in Coventry. I hope I’m saying this correctly, in the UK and also online. So if you’re not in the UK, please know that you can buy tickets online. And that event will be happening on November 15th. And the tickets are available now and you can read all about the agenda on the Overcoming MS website. And a link will also be shared afterwards. Come please and see myself, Sam and Karen, as we speak about the Overcoming MS site, specifically the gut microbiome and the role it plays in MS. I think Karen has mentioned that already. And also very important, enjoy overcoming MS-friendly food. That is so tasty. I have been to a retreat once and there was just wonderful OMS foods all day long. So enjoy the food, the refreshments and also the community. And those are people that really understand living with MS. They understand living with the OMS eating and lifestyle patterns. And so it’s really wonderful to be with them and we would love to see you there. Then I would also love to share a few useful resources. We’ve recently launched our Real Foods for Real Budget collection of recipe created by Karen. And it provides you with a budget friendly week long meal plan. You can download it off the Overcoming MS website for free. So have a look at all the essential lists, store, cup board ingredients and gain some practical cooking tips. It’s great for those who may be new to cooking, working with limited kitchen space, or looking for easy, cost-effective meals and something new.

Karen Lee (01:26:17.102)

Great. Okay. And so, yeah, a big thank you to you, Ingrid, for joining me today on today’s webinar. It’s been lovely talking with you. We hope you’ve enjoyed it. And just as a reminder, you will be receiving access to the recording via Zoom next week. And thank you to Jake, who’s been beavering behind the scenes, supporting us with the questions. Thank you. We’re going to be taking a short break from webinars over the summer, and we’ll be returning on the 14th of September. So get that in your diaries, with our popular Ask Aaron Boster session, which gives you the opportunity to ask your questions about MS to a neurologist. Registration will open shortly for this on the Overcoming MS website. And finally, just as a reminder, please do fill in the short pop-up survey that will come after the webinar and let us know your feedback because it really does help us to shape future webinars and events going forward.

So thank you so much and take care.

Bye, thank you.

Bye.