S4E34 Building resilience with Dr Rachael Hunter

Geoff Allix   

Welcome to the latest episode of The Living well with MS podcast. And this episode is Resilience and MS. And we’re having a conversation with Dr. Rachael Hunter. Dr. Hunter is a clinical academic who works as a clinical psychologist in the NHS and as a senior lecturer in clinical and health psychology at Swansea University. She’s an OMSer herself, and wrote the chapter on resilience in the new Overcoming Multiple Sclerosis Handbook. And also, she was on the retreat that I went on. So she was also one of the facilitators of my retreat when I started getting into OMS. So thank you very much for joining us, Rachel Hunter. 

  

Rachael Hunter   

Hi, Geoff good to see you. 

 
 Geoff Allix   

And to start off with, could you just tell us a little bit about your professional background and also your personal journey with MS and OMS? 

 
 

Rachael Hunter   

Yeah, sure. So, as you said, I’m a clinical psychologist by training. And I now work as a clinical academic. So that means I spend part of my week in a hospital, in the NHS, here in Wales, working in actually in a physical rehab setting where I work with patients and with the healthcare teams there. And the other part of my week is spent in university involving teaching mainly postgraduate students doing research and other kind of community engagement work as well, including, you know, facilitator work with the charity Overcoming MS, which I’ve been involved with, for, like you say, quite a few years now. But on a personal note, I was diagnosed with relapsing remitting MS 10 years ago now in 2012. And that was after a really big relapse. But obviously, with hindsight, I think everybody says this, with hindsight, looking back, I had a number of symptoms over quite a few years really, including crushing fatigue, maybe leading up to that big relapse. But the relapse itself involved a lot of sensory and motor symptoms. So I had a lot of numbness, complete down my right side, actually, you could almost draw a line from the top of my head, all the way through my body. So numbness, tingling, burning sensations. And that meant my balance was affected some of my mobility. So I struggled with a bit of a limp for a little while, and also my speech was affected. So I had a bit of slurred speech at the time. But importantly, I think it’s important to say, and I don’t think we say it enough. It’s the conversation about mental health. So for me, my mental health was really affected at the time I was diagnosed, and I really struggled in terms of anxiety and my mood, I really struggled to get my head around what was happening and the diagnosis itself. And in terms of OMS, I was really lucky to find Overcoming MS during my diagnosis, which was quite a protracted period of about six months, as it is for for a lot of us. And my neurologists told me to give them a ring really, if I relapsed, and that was about it. So I asked them, you know, well, what can I do to help myself, so anything I should be doing, and to give myself the best shot at a shot at this, and they didn’t really point me to anything in particular. And that didn’t really sit very well with me. So I started to do my own research, like many people do, and that was when I found Professor Roy Swank’s work. And that led me ultimately then to the work of Professor Jelinek and the Overcoming MS Program. 

 
 

Geoff Allix   

So you jump straight in from diagnosis. 

  

Rachael Hunter   

Yeah, so by the time I actually got a signed, sealed delivered, diagnosis letter, I was already making some of the changes for the program, because it just made sense. You know, I’d already read quite a lot about it at this point. And it didn’t seem like there was any downside to it. It didn’t seem like there was any risks to it, only benefits. It just made sense. And it hadn’t really sat very well with me when the neurologist said that there wasn’t anything that I could do, because as a psychologist, you know, my whole framework of clinical work is based on the idea that our physical health and our psychological health are intertwined. They, they absolutely affect each other. So instinctively, I knew that that wasn’t the case. And I knew that if I was struggling with my mental health, that that was going to affect my physical health. 

 
 Geoff Allix   

Yeah, I got that from unusual. People actually, it was the first person who really put me on to mental health. Apart from following OMS, because similar to you, I had a lengthy diagnosis, I was told almost certainly I had an MS, but you’re not getting any treatment until we’ve been fully, you know, definite. So basically go away and do your own thing for five months. But having been told you almost certainly have MS. But the physio said to me, because obviously, you think physical stuff actually said, “Oh, and as well as all that don’t ignore your mental health” and he was really explained to me just saying, you know, you mustn’t forget, because the stress will definitely affect you to the amount of people I see who are not dealing with the mental side of it. And that will directly affect the physical side of it. And he’s saying I’m not a professional, because I’m a physiotherapist. But just look after your mental health and stress as well.  

  

Rachael Hunter   

Absolutely. And that’s one of the things I love about working in rehab is is that that idea of the importance of our mindset, and our psychological well being is completely implicit within rehabilitation psychology or rehabilitation medicine. I really love that approach. I mean, how could it not be? How could it not be? 

 
 

Geoff Allix   

I think that’s something in the UK at least is not a part of the program. There’s still nothing psychological, as part of my MS treatment is there, I do have a weekly physio session they run this neuro active gym where I am, which is brilliant. And I have a neurologist, the medical side of it, who is pro OMS, which is good. But an MS nurse who is eventually become pro-OMS, she was very skeptical.  

 
 

Rachael Hunter   

I challenge you a little bit on that, Geoff, actually, if I can, actually, there probably is a huge amount of psychological work you’re doing in managing your MS you know, the changes you have made in terms of taking control and empowering yourself to make decisions around what you will do or the changes you’ll make. They’re fundamentally decisions that work at a psychological level and create something within you. So I think you underestimate that. 

 
 

Geoff Allix   

I think I’ve taken that on myself, though, I don’t think there’s anything that was that there was nothing in the professional framework. You don’t get assigned a psychologist, you get assigned a physio. 

 
 Rachael Hunter   

I don’t think everybody needs a psychologist, I think we all have within ourselves a lot of capabilities and a lot of resilience. And I guess that kind of brings us really neatly on to you know, the topic that we’re talking about today, which 

 
 

Geoff Allix   

well, yeah, cuz you wrote the resilience chapter of the Overcoming Multiple Sclerosis Handbook. So, yeah, what is resilience? Give us a little potted guide on what’s the resilience? 

  

Rachael Hunter   

Well, before I do that, I wanted to, you know, I just want to caveat this a little bit by saying, you know, I’m not here to talk about resilience, because I’m the most resilient person ever, because that is certainly not the case. You know, like everyone else I’ve had times in my life when things have been really difficult, and I’ve struggled and my diagnosis, being one of them. So I’m not here as a kind of an emblem of what what resilience looks like. But I think in my work as a clinical psychologist, and as a researcher, as well, I’ve been really lucky enough to spend a lot of time with people who have been through some really difficult and traumatic experiences, and somehow managed to emerge from them intact, often stronger. You know, embracing life in a in a different and more positive way. They seem to have flourished from some of those challenges. And, you know, in my work, and in my research, my mind is always completely blown by, by that, and I’m just in awe of it, really. So. I think I’m talking from that experience as much as my own experience of navigating my diagnosis, and life, you know, live living with the diagnosis of MS. So I’ve learned a lot from other people really including the MS community and the Overcoming MS community as well. So I’m really here to kind of just share things that I’ve observed and things that I’ve learned over over that time. So I don’t want to I don’t want to be held up as an emblem of resillance.  

 
 Geoff Allix   

Do as I say, not as I do sometimes. 

  

Rachael Hunter   

And try not to do that. But I know what you mean. So yeah, I mean, what is resilience? Well, you can imagine like any sort of construct or concept in medicine or science or health, there’s loads of different definitions to what resilience is. But I think there’s a really nice way of capturing it, that I tend to turn to quite often, which is an ability, that resiliency is sort of an ability to accept one’s experiences without avoidance, depending on the department, depending on what the demands are, of course, that you can continue to try and live your life and pursue your goals, despite that adversity or that diversity. So you know, what does that really mean? Well, it’s basically talking about a capacity to respond positively to adverse situations. 

 
 

Geoff Allix   

So that can be a bereavement, but equally, that would apply to someone who’s got a chronic condition. Whether that’s a cancer diagnosis, or multiple sclerosis, or something like that. 

 
 Rachael Hunter   

Yeah. So it could be, you know, something that we’re having to deal with all of the time. And for lots of us living with chronic conditions that can feel like a low level constant, or it could be a big event, a loss, like you say, a bereavement or all a trauma that can trigger this reaction is that we need, you know, we need to respond in some way, we need to accept, we need to adapt, and we need to find a way to navigate it. So you know, there are a range of things that are associated or involved with resilience, and the researchers has been really good in helping us to identify them. And they’re exactly what you’d expect them to be really Geoff, you know, things like optimism, self esteem, determination, support, you know, social support really important. But also things like self care. So being able to take care of ourselves and be compassionate towards ourselves. So I think the more I’ve got to learn about resilience over the years, the kind of less I think I understand it in a way, because there’s so many factors that feed into that, there’s so many things that are relevant. And of course, they’re kind of individual to you as well. You know, what, what helps you stay resilient, Geoff, be might be different to me. 

 
 

Geoff Allix   

And others question about that some people might find it patronizing or insulting, when you’re talking about notion of resilience to them. There is an element, we sort of think sometimes you get experts talking to you who don’t have MS. So I always prefer it. If people have got MS. You got to be you get it, whereas most experts haven’t. And some of them still do get it very well, but others are like yeah, okay, but you don’t actually understand exactly what I mean by you know, Spoon Theory. So let’s talk about Spoon Theory the other day, like, if people haven’t come across it, it’s like, you get so many spoons that started theday and once you to use all your spoons, your energy is completely gone. And I think MSers is quite often get those sort of ideas because they’re going through it and they’re like, Okay, I can understand it. But to some people, some professionals, it’s like a concept rather a lived things that you find people find it patronizing to talk about resilience. 

 
 Rachael Hunter   

Yeah, I think the reality is, sometimes people can find it a bit patronizing. And a bit insulting, sometimes as if, you know, well, you just need to be a bit more resilient, you just need to get on with it. Or maybe that you’re struggling because you haven’t quite got enough resilience. And that’s certainly, you know, I think we really need to be careful when we talk about resilience, because that’s certainly not the way we would want people to perceive it. But I agree, I think it is a sensitive topic. So we need to, we need to be careful, and we need to qualify what we’re saying. I think part of that issue comes because, you know, resilience has been a little bit misrepresented. Sometimes, you know, for example, I know sometimes in health care we might provide resilience training to help people cope with you know, what is actually a very challenging or some might say, even broken system. So what we don’t want to do is say, actually, we’re going to make you more resilient so you can cope with being treated badly or cope with this awful environment, because that’s not what we want to do. You know, we don’t want to excuse the political or the socio economic challenges that people are facing. I think that’s why we have to be really, really careful. But on the other hand, you know, I think, like I said at the start, I’ve worked with incredible people in my career, in the MS community and in a range of other clinical areas. And I just think there’s so many important things that we can take from people’s experiences of, surviving and overcoming challenges that are really, really useful. And we can use them to really help us shape services and to really find ways that we can support people in a more helpful way. 

 
 

Geoff Allix   

And so how would relationship resilience and having this traumatic diagnosis of something like MS. For me, it was actually not a terrible thing, because there was something clearly very wrong with me and not having a brain tumor was quite good. It was like, you start, you start going through your head what it could be, and you’re like, actually, because my father had MS. So I was like, Okay, I know that it’s not necessarily, like, as bad as you might have thought. There’s some people that they had no experience. And then it is massively traumatic, because they thought they had an eye problem that would be fixed by an optician, and suddenly they’ve got a life-changing diagnosis. So I think it does depend on background, but it certainly yeah, there’s there is it’s there is trauma there isn’t there. What’s the relationship of resilience and a traumatic event like that?  

 
 

Rachael Hunter   

It’s a good point, Geoff. And you know, being diagnosed with something like MS is huge. It’s often described as a life changing diagnosis. And it really, you know, it is it really is in so many ways, but it doesn’t necessarily mean that people will will be traumatized. They almost, you know, they’ll probably see this as a huge challenge, and maybe see that they have to keep dealing with this for the rest of their life. But it’s important to say that for most people, even facing really difficult traumas, or challenges, the vast majority of people cope with them really well. Actually, you know, we’ve come to talk about trauma so easily, haven’t we, in society? We talk about feeling depressed, when actually we might feel sad. We talk about feeling traumatized, when we’re kind of, you know, a bit shocked or something. So we’ve colloquialised, this language, I think, which is also a bit unhelpful. And so we can get quite far away from the idea that actually, we can forget, you know, actually, the vast majority of us are really able to manage quite challenging things in our life, we can cope with things. And, you know, what’s interesting, actually, I was reading a paper the other day, and it was saying, that, actually, people the fear of, of being traumatized, the fear of PTSD has become far greater than the disorder itself far greater than Post Traumatic Stress Disorder itself. So you know, if we look at PTSD data, only about about 10% of those who experience a significant trauma will go on to experience significant PTSD symptoms, while the fear of being traumatized is much greater than that. And, and also, within those people who have, you know, significant PTSD symptoms, 90% of those people will go on to have complete remission of those symptoms. So those symptoms, they’ll overcome them, they’ll be okay. So, you know, we’re looking at very small numbers, but a large part of our narrative is around trauma, isn’t it and about how things are traumatic. And that can be a helpful, because it’s good to hear, it’s so good that we’re talking much more about mental health, and its impact on us. But also, we need to also recognize actually, that we’re quite resilient. As humans, we do have the capacity to overcome huge challenges in our lives. 

 
 

Geoff Allix   

So you should be optimistic, really, because you’re talking about, actually, the chances are low and of that chance of full recovery very high. So it’s a 10% of a 10%. 

 
 

Rachael Hunter   

Yeah, I mean, you know, like you said, lots of people I’ve spoken to lots of people, I’m sure you have too Geoff in the MS community who like you are quite relieved when they got their diagnosis in the end, because your mind goes to all these places, actually, that are far worse outcomes. And, you know, sometimes A)it’s a relief in you know, initially for some people and B) now I know what I’m dealing with, I can get on with it, I can find treatments and I can respond, I can make changes to my lifestyle. So, yeah, I think it’s really important that we don’t assume that this is going to be traumatic. And we don’t catastrophize around that, because that can really then shape the way we behave and the way we think. And that can then be quite unhelpful. 

 
 

Geoff Allix   

So what are the building blocks of resilience? And so we talked about resilience. How would you go about saying to someone how you follow the building blocks of resilience? 

 
 

Rachael Hunter   

I think, when I started to really become really interested in resilience, one of the things I did was look at a lot of what the different psychological theories were around resilience, but also, theories relating to positive psychology, those kinds of models. And what you see is a lot of overlap between a lot of these models. And one thing that is really clear is that actually, all of these things are lovely, you can have all these great ideas and great models, but I was left thinking, Well, that’s all really nice and good. But if you haven’t got the basics, that basic foundation, then you can’t really attend to the higher level stuff. So for example, you know, how can you, really develop and think about your  spirituality, for example, or your relationships, if you don’t know where your next meal is coming from, or you’re exhausted, because you haven’t slept properly, at a physiological level, you know, if you’re putting bad food in your body, or you’re not hydrated. It kind of really struck me that actually, we don’t say enough to people, or we don’t talk enough about how important those fundamental building blocks are. If you think of it, like a triangle, we need the building blocks to be stable at the bottom of the triangle. And those kind of basic functional, day to day things that we need to do to keep ourselves alive and functioning our best, are actually quite simple: sleep, their hydration, eating good food, and being safe. You know, safety is a really important thing. And, you know, it’s a challenging time at the moment, a lot of people are struggling to even meet those basic needs. And I think we have to, you have to really acknowledge that. 

 
 

Geoff Allix   

Yeah, it’s a thing. I don’t know if this sounds what you’re talking about, I remember the hierarchy of needs, where you’ve got to meet the level one, and then you get to a point as well, we’re saying, Well, you need a certain amount of food to survive. And that’s one of the very lower level ones. But then you get to a point, there’s no point in adding more food to that you won’t get more out of it. And the same with there’s no point if you’ve got a house, you’ve got food, you’ve got all your basics taken care of. You don’t actually get happier. it gets the point where actually having more income doesn’t make you happier, because you met the the basics, and then you get to self actualization at the top of something. 

 
 

Rachael Hunter   

I think it just makes sense, doesn’t it? Very, you know, concrete level, it makes a lot of sense that we can’t attend to the higher grade stuff if our basic needs aren’t being met. But I think it’s a conversation that doesn’t happen enough when we talk about resilience. And when we talk about well being. 

 
 

Geoff Allix   

So I’ve certainly I’ve come across was that you have a three Ps framework. So what’s what are the three P’s? And could you explain that a little bit? 

 
 

Rachael Hunter   

Yeah, so it’s a something that I developed myself after spending quite a lot of time looking at the various models and the theories that related to things like resilience, positive psychology, and also post traumatic growth, which is something that we see actually much more frequently coming out of trauma than PTSD, which is interesting. So as I was looking at these things, it definitely struck me that there were so many variables and factors across all these theories and literature, and it was quite confusing. And then, you know, when I’m teaching and when I’m working with people, it’s really important to try and make things as simple as we can. And not just because we want to dumb it down, but because it’s just if it’s not clear, then we’re just not going to use it. It’s not going to be practical, it’s not gonna be useful. And so I really sort of developed it from my own, you know, way of using things really, and I noticed that some of the things that were being repeated related to certain factors. So, oh, that sits neatly under pleasure, these are things that relate to pleasure. These are factors that relate to having meaning or purpose in my life. And these are factors that actually I need to repeat these factors in my life, I need to just keep practicing, and keep doing over and over. Because as you as you know, Geoff, like, it isn’t like you just make these changes, and then the work is done. Or, you know, you have a little time of reflection, and then you’re resilient, you know, it’s a process, it’s a constant day to day thing, it’s not a glamorous thing, it’s it’s work, isn’t it, it’s a it’s a practice. 

 
 

Geoff Allix   

I think, the seventh seventh step of the seven step program, isn’t it, that you, it isn’t really a step, it’s just saying that you need to keep doing it forever. It’s, a permanent change. 

 
 

Rachael Hunter   

Yeah. And so you know, that’s really where the, the idea of the three P’s came from. And, you know, each one of them,  you can congregate or group, a lot of information, we can gather evidence, and each one of those things, but the nice thing about it is that they also can overlap, and they can interact. So the things that give you pleasure are often the things that connect to your sense of purpose, as well. And we know that if we practice things regularly, then they’re gonna be more likely to be useful to us in the long term. 

 
 

Geoff Allix   

You’ve got pleasure, purpose and practice. So going into those a little bit more, how could you can you get more pleasure in your life. 

 
 

Rachael Hunter   

So I mean, pleasure is a really interesting one, I think it’s, you know, it, it can be easy to dismiss the idea of having more pleasure in your life. But actually, pleasure can encompass so many, things. Like I said, it could be doing something that connects you to your passion, it could be something that connects you to other people. So straight away, we’re bringing in the sense of community and a sense of connection, but doing things that we enjoy, you know, that’s something that when we have a busy life, it’s often the first thing that we get rid of, you know, it’s we put our responsibilities first. And often the things that we take pleasure in and that we get pleasure from and contentment from, and the things that we are first to remove from our life. But so actually, integrating them is quite a bold act of self compassion, really, it’s a way to take care of ourselves, nurture our contentment, and it allows us to then also practice gratitude, which, you know, we know from the research is, is something that’s really protective, for our well being. 

 
 

Geoff Allix   

You almost treat it like exercise. But wait, look, when you exercise, you think I’m not doing something selfish, I’m doing a to do and it’s similar to that it’s not a selfish act to do something for your own pleasure. 

 
 

Rachael Hunter   

Exactly. A lot of people find it really hard to integrate pleasure into their lives, particularly if people feel that they’re not worthy of that they feel unworthy of having time to themselves, you know, they think that they shouldn’t be allowed to take care of themselves or look after, after themselves. So I think we need to recognize that actually, it’s important like you say, it’s an important part. And I think that’s why I really wanted to include pleasure. In the framework because like you say, we sometimes we forget about it, we push it away, because something like exercise, we can see the value of like, Yes, I’ll put that in, because that’s good for me. And I wanted to highlight, you know, that actually taking time to do things you enjoy and that bring you pleasure, that’s actually really good for you, at a physiological level, you know, we get the extra oxytocin release, we get a neurochemical release that’s really protective and good for us. When we do the things we enjoy. It’s not just at a psychological level, it’s very much at a physiological level as well. 

 
 

Geoff Allix   

And moving on to purpose. So how can people connect and find that true purpose? I think that applies to a lot of people as well. I think they sort of go through life just being, not not really doing they don’t have a target, they basic sort of day to day, they go to a job, they come home, they eat some food, they sit in front of the TV, and then they repeat endlessly without thinking that they actually have a purpose. I think a majority of people would say they don’t have a purpose in life. And so how would someone go about out to finding their purpose. 

 
 

Rachael Hunter   

Yeah, I think, you know, I think you’re right, I think life is busy. And the way that we’ve been conditioned to live in a way really is to, like you say, be busy, go to work, come home, give to others, you know, a family, prioritize other’s needs sometimes. And we can get so caught up in that we can become very disconnected from what we really want or what our real values are. And so I think there are ways that you can reconnect to your purpose and meaning and I think being diagnosed with MS is often or any, condition or illness, it often catapults us into that doesn’t it? And is this massive, kick up the bum, a lot of us say that, you know, it was a wake up call, it really made me reevaluate what I was doing. Which actually can feel like a real gift, it’s probably the one gift that you get, when you get a diagnosis like MS is just the opportunity to go “hang on a minute, you know, where’s my life going? What am I doing? Is this where I want to be?” So we’ve been, we’ve already been given that opportunity to reflect. And if we take it can be a real opportunity to make changes if we want to. So I think, you know, thinking about what our purpose and meaning is, doesn’t have to be hugely complex. I think if we give people the time and space to think about it, people are very, very quick to know what’s important to them in their life. You know, that’s often around their family, their friends, it could be around spirituality, religion, it could be about living a life that they feel has had purpose or value to someone else. So it could be serving other people. So sometimes what we do is we’ll take time with people to pause and get them to write down what their intrinsic kind of their core values in their life are. We might ask them to them rank them in order of what’s important to them. And then to take a moment to look at each one of those and write a sentence really a kind of intention sentence. So I call it an intention statement about how they intend to make a change in their life to kind of align their life to be more in keeping with that value. So that’s a really nice exercise people can do, too, if they want to pause and take a moment to think about what drives them. Really, what are the things that light them up, and that really connect to them? That’s how you can really connect to your purpose. And then 

 
 

Geoff Allix   

the final one, practice, what’s the what do you mean by by practice? 

 
 

Rachael Hunter   

Yeah, so I think one of the things that made me include the word practice was I really love the way we talk about a meditation practice. And the way that actually what we’re talking about is a routine is kind of a habit, isn’t it? But I love the way that that school of thought calls it a practice, because it creates that idea that we never really get perfect at anything, we’ll just keep on going with it. We’re all just trying. 

 
 

Geoff Allix   

you know, funny word, because it can mean different things. ganttic Because it can mean sort of doing something regularly, or it can mean a learning process, or it can be a doctor surgery. And we sort of have that. Yeah. So you’re sort of saying is that that is both practices, both to sort of do something regularly, but also that you’re constantly learning? Is that what you mean? 

 
 

Rachael Hunter   

yeah, so it’s that kind of dual meaning meaning of keeping that repetitive action, keeping going. Because we know when you make changes in your life, or when you face significant events in your life, it is important to just keep going. And actually that change doesn’t come from big grand gestures. Change comes from small things done repeatedly over time. Really, so the idea of practice really came through that.  

 
 

Geoff Allix   

I sort of touched upon it that I don’t sit in my MS Team, there’s no one providing any form of like clinical psychological help. So and I think if, if people are treated in that way, it’s probably because it’s got to a point where things have got quite bad and you want to obviously not get to that point. So if you are trying to look more at self care, what would you say is an approach that you can take? 

 
 

Rachael Hunter   

Yeah, so again, you know, self care is is integral to what we need to be practicing all the time. And I think making it a part of any framework is really important. But I suppose I have quite a broad definition of self care. And that’s going to be very individual for each person. But I always encourage people to really think broadly about what self care could be, you know, there’s the,  the classic ideas of, you know, candles around the bubble bath, but you know, but who’s got time, who’s going to do that every every week, you know, that might be nice. But actually, self care can take so many shapes and forms that are really, really essential. So it could be something as as basic, as making sure that you have a nap. And interesting that was a part of Swank’s original program wasn’t it was making sure people took time to have an afternoon nap. So it could be something as simple as a nap. But it could also be something, you know, like integrating that pleasure, that pleasure time. So scheduling activities that bring you pleasure and joy that connect you to people that you feel supported by or that you enjoy spending time with. And I think there’s another area that’s, often dismissed or forgotten about. And that’s really important in self care. And that’s around self compassion. So in particular, being kind to yourself, and letting go perhaps of some of the things that we beat ourselves up with constantly. And you know, there are things in all of our lives that can be a bit maybe upsetting, they could be challenging, we might be in relationships, or jobs that we find really difficult, quite toxic even. And staying in that environment is a constant challenge to us, it’s a constant pressure and a source of stress that we really don’t need. So, sometimes self care is the act of letting go. It’s sometimes it’s about knowing, okay, I’m going to walk away from that relationship, not because I want to punish that person, but because I need to take care of myself. And similarly, with forgiveness, you know, we’re holding on to pain and resentment, that can also be something that’s causing a chronic stress for us as well. So letting go of those things, or forgiving ourselves for staying in positions that we might have stayed in, they can also be seen as acts of self care. So again, this can be such a broad range of what we can do to take care of ourselves. But I think, you know, practicing again, coming back to that idea of practicing self compassion for ourselves, is really, really important. And, you know, we can sit that under self care if you want, but I think it’s really important for well being and definitely for helping us stay resilient.  

 
 

Geoff Allix   

So thank you very much for that, I think there’s a lot of information that people can take from that and, improve the way that they’re dealing with certainly we have people with an MS diagnosis or just ongoing. You know, for me, I have quite a while ago now, I was diagnosed, but I do see, just that way you live your life. And yes, thinking about self compassion, and definitely, there’s a lot of great things out there. And with that, thank you very much for joining us, Rachel Hunter