S8E27: Making healthy choices sustainable with Zillah Smart

Zillah Smart (00:00)

I would say don’t let perfection be the enemy of good because the aim isn’t to create a lifestyle that only works when life is calm. It’s to create habits that can bend when life gets a bit messy and then that can help you to return to yourself and focus on yourself again.

 

Geoff (00:58)

Welcome to the latest edition of Living Well with MS. Joining me on this edition is Zilla Smart. Zilla is a UK-based nutrition therapist passionate about helping people live well with MS through realistic, evidence-informed nutrition and lifestyle choices. After her own diagnosis in 2010, she became determined to move beyond just coping and focus on what she can influence day to day. As well as her focus on nutrition through her work, Zilla is currently completing her meditation.

 

mindfulness teacher training with breathworks. Understanding that other aspects of lifestyle are just as important as the food we eat, she works with clients to improve their movement and sleep habits as well as managing their stress. So welcome to the podcast Zilla.

 

Zillah Smart (01:43)

Thank you, I’m really happy to be here. It’s good to see you, Geoff.

 

Geoff (01:47)

So to start off with, could you give us an introduction of yourself and your work both with overcoming MS and outside of Overcoming S?

 

Zillah Smart (01:57)

Yeah, absolutely. So as you’ve said, my name is Zilla Smart and I’m a nutritional therapist. I’m based in Norfolk in the UK and I live there with my husband and three children. So work wise, I support people with their health goals by focusing, as you said, on nutrition,

 

managing stress, movement and also sleep. And for me, it’s about personalising that approach.

 

to everybody’s of like unique challenges because, you know, people don’t need more pressure. They need any changes they make to fit with their lifestyle, whether it’s children, work, budget, know, kind of busy life. So I’m also living with MS myself. I was diagnosed in 2010. Not long after that, I found the work of Dr. Swank and then overcoming MS.

 

It completely changed my view of my diagnosis, if you like. It kind of gave me something positive and practical to focus on. With Overcoming MS, I’m currently training as a facilitator, which I feel really honoured to be doing. It allows me to share with other people the tools I’ve found that help myself. The thing I love about Overcoming MS is the community.

 

You’re not just being told to go away and fix yourself, but you’re actually being supported to build a lifestyle that can sit alongside medical care. But as you mentioned, although I’m a nutritional therapist, it is really important for me to focus on other areas of lifestyle as well. So something that I’m especially interested in bringing into the Overcoming MS conversation is sleep.

 

Obviously food and movement and everything is hugely important, but I find that sleep is one of those foundational pieces that affects everything else. kind of energy and motivation, food choices, your mood and pain tolerance. So the thing I’m interested in is kind of making sleep advice practical for people with MS because as we know,

 

actually having MS can make sleep difficult anyway.

 

Geoff (04:04)

So could you tell us a bit about your own diagnosis and how how was that?

 

Zillah Smart (04:10)

Yeah, sure, it’s going back a bit now it feels. So I was diagnosed in 2010 following a sudden onset of what I later understood to be optic neuritis. So I had blurred double vision and I found it really frightening at the time because I couldn’t just like blink it off or kind of shake it away.

 

I then had some tingling sensations, which I found quite strange. So I did what most of us do and I employed Dr. Google and all the search results just kept glaring out at me, multiple sclerosis. So by the time I eventually got my diagnosis, which was about four months later, having bounced around different specialists, I was pretty convinced that’s what it was. But despite

 

being prepared and thinking myself, what it was going to be. The diagnosis itself was actually a huge shock because I think I still clung on to hope that I was wrong. you still really kind of try and think everything that you’re seeing is just the worst. So even when you know something isn’t right, hearing the words confirming multiple sclerosis changes everything.

 

There’s fear, grief, uncertainty, and suddenly you’re thinking about your future in a completely different way. And I think that was one of the hardest parts. At the beginning was the unknown because you don’t know what your MS is going to look like. You don’t know whether symptoms will settle, whether things will progress, whether your plans are going to have to change. And it can feel quite literally as if the ground has shifted from underneath you.

 

I can remember leaving the neurologist office and I just, I felt completely in the dark as to what I should do, what my life was going to be like, and just an absolute complete lack of hope. I’m somebody who is always planning for the future. I have a vision of, you know, what I would like my future to be. So that was something that I really struggled with. My MS neurologist.

 

and MS nurse didn’t exactly help with that. I’d just turned 30. I’d just got married. We were planning children. We were looking at moving into a house. They said I’d probably be in a wheelchair in five years to reconsider having children. And instead of looking for a house, I should be looking at bungalows. So yeah, that was how my first experience was. unfortunately,

 

Geoff (06:37)

Hmm.

 

Zillah Smart (06:39)

A bit of a long story here is rambling on, but unfortunately that first few months after diagnosis seemed to follow what they had said because although my vision returned to normal, I continued moving through other typical MS, seemingly random symptoms. And at my worst, was numb from the neck down, plus half of my mouth and my tongue went numb and my hands had spasticity. So

 

My fingers contracted and I couldn’t move them. I was a photography teacher at the time. So not being able to use my hands proved pretty challenging. My husband was helping me get dressed, get ready in the morning. He even did my makeup, which was interesting. But at work, I couldn’t even unlock my classroom door as my students kind of waited to come in, let alone turn pages in their book or use a camera. But I was fortunate that

 

Fairly early on, I began looking for what I could do to support myself. Not pretending that it wasn’t serious or rejecting medical advice. It was just that I needed something constructive to hold on to, think. I think I needed to feel that my day-to-day choices still mattered. My MS symptoms from that first attack did clear up with the course of steroids. But that’s where…

 

discovering lifestyle approaches became so important for me. It gave me a sense of agency. Maybe I couldn’t control everything about my MS, but I could do something about my environment, the food I was eating, my stress levels, my movement and the way I cared for myself. think so looking back, I think the diagnosis was a huge turning point. I’m not going to say I’m grateful for my MS.

 

I don’t think we have to dress it up as a gift, but it did force me to reassess the pace I was living at and the kind of life I wanted to build.

 

Geoff (08:30)

you mentioned swank. and swank research was probably a precursor to overcoming MS. George Janinek came across swank and then then sort of built upon that. So what are the differences between the swank approach and the OMS approach? And how did you go about implementing those the changes to your lifestyle, the diet, exercise, stress management, meditation?

 

Zillah Smart (08:55)

Yeah, yeah, that’s right. So when I first started looking into lifestyle and MS, I came across Swank and his research was really compelling. It focused on a very low saturated fat diet for people with MS and the he found after his, I think it was 34 years, his study, they just completely drew me in and starting to understand the science.

 

really was a huge starting point for me. So the Swank approach kind of gave me a clear dietary framework and it helped me really understand why saturated fat was relevant for people with MS. I started implementing that, so I started taking out red meat and I just went down to kind of like chicken and I think it was pork and I really focused on taking things out of my diet.

 

but then I discovered overcoming MS and what I loved about it, was that it took that dietary foundation and it placed it within a much broader kind of lifestyle program. It wasn’t just about eating a certain way. was diet. was vitamin D exercise, managing stress, you know, kind of using tools like meditation, but obviously also supporting medication, where appropriate.

 

Geoff (10:12)

Okay.

 

Zillah Smart (10:12)

but

 

it also considered the health of family members and making these changes sustainable for life. And I think that was the difference for me. It made me understand that this wasn’t just a diet, a quick fix. It was a lifestyle change and it had to be something that was going to continue for life. And it just made it feel a bit more complete.

 

I think diet was the first pillar for me that I worked on. And I think that’s quite typical because, you know, eating is something we do three times a day, if not more. So it’s one of the things we feel like we can make a more immediate change. And I’m a child of the 80s. So I grew up, you know, cereal for breakfast and deep fat fryers and, you know, typical kind of way of eating. So

 

Yeah, I moved towards whole food plant forward. no meat. So I cut out the rest of the meat, dairy, very low saturated fat. I did keep fish and seafood, which is in line with overcoming MS because I already ate it and I enjoyed it and I understood the benefits of it. But at the beginning, I was really focused on doing it correctly. So I remember kind of checking all the labels, you know, find discovering the foods that were high in saturated fat.

 

and rethinking meals that were familiar and routine. But over time, it’s become much more natural. I think then stress management was the next piece of the puzzle. And I started dealing with it pretty naturally because, as I said, when I was diagnosed, I was a secondary school teacher, head of department. So I was used to living at a fairly high stress level. But MS kind of forced me to take a step back.

 

So then when I started having children a couple of years later, I embraced kind of actually gradually moving out of that profession to focus on just being a mum. And I think overcoming MS, it helped me realise that managing my stress wasn’t a luxury. It was part of caring for my nervous system and that was critical at that point. So then, yeah, as you’ve mentioned, it led me into training.

 

as a mindfulness teacher with Breathworks. Exercise actually came later for me because throughout my 30s, I was busy with three young children. So I had to learn that movement didn’t have to be extreme to count. know, walking the streets with a buggy was fine, but…

 

I think sometimes people hear exercise and think they need to train like an athlete. But for MS, it’s more about consistency and circulation and strength and mood and confidence in your own body, I think, because you think it’s quite common to lose confidence in your own body when you’re diagnosed. The Covid lockdown gave me a perfect opportunity to explore different forms of exercise because my husband was off work. So I had the time.

 

put into it and I started with couch to 5k but movement for me now so we’re talking five years later of movement so I still enjoy kind of gentle running, yoga, do some strength work and walking and I do cook soul one which is a traditional Korean martial art which I really enjoy. In terms of medication yeah it hasn’t medication hasn’t been a part of my journey so far

 

but I do value that overcoming MS, doesn’t create that kind of false divide between lifestyle and medicine. It encourages people to use medication if appropriate and also taking an active role in lifestyle.

 

Geoff (13:31)

Mm-hmm. And so have you got any sort of lessons learned that you could pass on to people new to the Overcoming MS programme about changing your lifestyle and and making those healthier choices?

 

Zillah Smart (13:43)

Yeah, absolutely. This is something I feel really passionate about because I didn’t have that when I was first diagnosed. I think it’s so important. I guess the biggest lesson that I’ve learned is that lifestyle change has to be built, not forced. So it’s okay to build gradually on the programme because in the beginning you are tempted to try and change everything overnight because

 

you’re frightened, you know, it can be a really scary time. And I think fear can be a really big motivator, but it’s not always a sustainable one. So you need changes to eventually come from care for yourself rather than panicking. I’d recommend that anyone new to overcoming MS starts with the basics, but not all at once. Maybe they take the time to learn the programme, choose one or two areas to focus on.

 

and build from there. Because for some people food is the most obvious starting point, but for someone else it might be getting their vitamin D tested or getting outside for a walk or reducing their stress if they’re living with high stress. With diet I would say don’t just focus on what you’re taking out but focus on what you’re adding in. That was a big mistake I made. I took a lot out but didn’t replace it early on.

 

So think about all those colourful plants, beans, lentils, whole grains, fruit, veggies, herbs, spices, seafood, if you eat it. It’s about making your plate feel abundant, not restricted. So sometimes I suggest adding food in before actually removing anything, because as you add more in, you feel less need for the food that you need to take out.

 

And I think if you can make food easy to access as well, so you’re more likely to eat it. So if you have healthy options in the cupboard rather than, you know, temptations, if you like, it’s much easier if you plan your meals. Maybe you do some batch cooking, have options in the freezer for those days when you’re feeling a bit strung out and tired. But yeah, think overcoming MS

 

can feel like a big change. And if the people around you don’t understand those changes, it can feel difficult. find your community of which Overcoming MS has lots of community online, different options with the hub. Yeah, and people around you that get it make it feel more normal and hopeful because you’re hearing how things work for them. But I guess something I’ve…

 

really found recently and learned is that although the overcoming MS pillars stay the same, the way you apply them changes with the season of life you’re in. for me at 46, the next big shift was perimenopause. know, bit of a buzzword at the moment, but for good reason. Perimenopause can overlap with MS in really kind of confusing ways. So I am now being

 

even more intentional about stress and movement and sleep. But yeah, basically I would say don’t let perfection be the enemy of good because the aim isn’t to create a lifestyle that only works when life is calm. It’s to create habits that can bend when life gets a bit messy and then that can help you to return to yourself and focus on yourself again.

 

Overcoming MS (16:59)

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Geoff (17:16)

So you mentioned that you’re a mother. So how how do you cope balancing family life with following o overcoming MS?

 

Zillah Smart (17:26)

Yeah, yeah, this can be a tricky one, can’t it? because people aren’t following overcoming MS solely. That’s not all they’re doing, you know, they’re often juggling it with parenting and working, caring for others, shopping, cooking, yeah, dealing with tiredness and sometimes managing other people’s needs before their own. And that’s never so

 

Geoff (17:27)

Mm-hmm.

 

Zillah Smart (17:50)

more obvious than when you’re a parent, I think. So as a mum, I understand

 

how difficult life can be when little people are around, how it can feel like you’re living in a complete whirlwind and

 

just getting dressed and out of the door some days can be a mammoth task. And it can really feel like self-care takes a bit of a hit, I think. Needs to take a bit of a backseat for a while because there’s more important things going on.

 

But when you have a condition like MS that needs managing, the pressure of not doing the things you need to just kind of adds to the stress. And as we know, stress is such a trigger for MS symptoms, so it can turn into a bit of a cycle.

 

So, so yeah, for me, when my children are little, I decided early on to try and take the pressure off and try not to do all the things.

 

you know, take them to all the groups and do all the meetings and things. just decided to take one day at a time, listen to my body. And it didn’t matter if we missed a toddler group or, you know, a weighing in session or anything. But I think as my kids have got older, I’ve made overcoming MS part of family life rather than something completely separate. So with the food side, that doesn’t mean everyone in the house has to eat exactly the same as me all the time. But

 

We do try to cook meals that can be adapted. So we might have the same base meal and then people can add different things in if they want to. And I’ve also learned to keep food simple because at the beginning you can feel as though every meal needs to be perfectly balanced and exciting. But that doesn’t really work with real family life. You know, we need repeatable meals that are easy. Pasta sauces, bean chili, soups.

 

jacket potatoes, rice bowls, stir fries, salads, wraps, smoothies, porridge, know, easy meals. So I found the more normal it feels, the less mental energy it takes. But there is also a bit of a balance with the emotional side because I don’t want MS or overcoming MS to dominate my family life or to feel kind of

 

like a heavy thing, you know, weighing on us. So I want my children to see that looking after your health is normal, but not driven by fear or obsession. so I want it to be, just a typical thing they think about. And I think that being a mum definitely teaches you about flexibility. there’s phases where sleep is disrupted massively. I think for me, it was about eight years.

 

routines change, children need you or life is busy, you just have to deal with it the best you can and I’ve had to learn that I can still be committed to overcoming MS without being rigid. I think that’s been really important for helping me deal with it.

 

Geoff (20:40)

Mm-hmm.

 

So there is a an overcoming MS pillar for family health I’ve sort of said to my kids, because my father had MS, so I think that they very much saw it as grandad, dad, I’m next, kind of thing. And it’s like, well, actually, no, there’s still the odds are.

 

i it is very, very unlikely still. It’s just that it’s more likely than the general population. So you are more concerned, I think, as a parent. So how do you encourage your kids to to live well and to bring in some of those practices?

 

Zillah Smart (21:12)

Yeah, I found that really difficult one to navigate because my MS isn’t visible. They can’t see that there’s anything, you know, I don’t have any symptoms. So they never said to me, what, you know, why are you like this or anything? So it was making a conscious decision. When do I tell them that have it? And this is why I eat the way that I do. But yeah.

 

Geoff (21:20)

Mm-hmm.

 

Zillah Smart (21:33)

I also didn’t want them growing up with that fear because children are a bit of a blank canvas, aren’t they? So like I I didn’t want them to think that thing of, I’m going to get this and until they really understood it. I really loved that overcoming mess includes family health because it is so important that they do understand the benefits of eating well and living well. But for me, it’s not about

 

Geoff (21:40)

Enter.

 

Zillah Smart (21:56)

telling them, you must eat this because it’s healthy. It’s more about creating an environment where healthy choices just feel normal. And I remember when, when my eldest was quite young and he took an olive, it was like a olive stuffed with garlic and he took it off our plate. And I can remember someone saying, well, that’s not very child friendly food. I was like, you know, why, why can’t it be if it’s what

 

they grow up with and it’s just normal, then they’re going to just accept it. So that’s what we try to do. And I try to talk about food in terms of what it does for the body. for their energy levels, for their mood or their concentration, for keeping them strong, supporting their immune system, helping them stay healthy, ways that they can recover from sport or having very busy times or busy days, they can just rest.

 

I try not to make it about weight or fear. I just try to normalise it. And I also think children learn a lot more from what we model than what we lecture. So if seeing us eating colourful food, going outside, moving our bodies, resting if we need to, you know, mum’s leave mum alone. She’s she’s having half an hour meditation.

 

or really focusing on my sleep, I think that really becomes part of their understanding of health. Yes, that part of normal, healthy life. And as a family, we really enjoy doing things together outside, like playing games, going for walks, going to the beach and things like that too. They really enjoy doing things with us.

 

doesn’t mean at all that we’re perfect. Sometimes when I’m working with people, they say to me, your children must eat so well. We’re not perfect. We are a normal family. There are busy days, convenience foods, arguments and preferences and not liking certain things. But I think the bigger picture is that they’re growing up with an awareness that lifestyle matters. And finally, I really try to involve them.

 

Geoff (23:38)

Mm.

 

Zillah Smart (23:56)

So where I can, so I’ll ask them, you know, choosing meals, helping cook, understanding why we go outside, noticing how they feel after, different types of food or after a few late nights. It’s about helping them build body awareness rather than giving them rules. I mean, I really like that if my kids have something come up with their health, they don’t feel very well. Their first response, they don’t say, you know, I’m so…

 

feel so terrible, they actually start asking questions. They’re like, oh, so what’s been going on? You know, I’ve had a few late nights or I’ve had a really busy week or we’ve had, you know, a weekend of, know, those foods that we shouldn’t, you know, like heavy meals, let’s say, or lots of treats, maybe around a birthday or something. But they think about that. And so I don’t make them feel bad or guilty for it. It’s just

 

Geoff (24:32)

Mm-hmm.

 

Zillah Smart (24:52)

I guess recognition that their body might just need a bit of rebalancing again.

 

Geoff (24:57)

I think it’s really important as well because I mean, our kids are are unlikely to get MS. But then you you look into the nutrition advice for things like cancer, heart disease, obesity, things that are massively prevalent in our society and are far more likely for our kids to get and actually having following the overcoming MS diet, a plant based whole food diet.

 

Zillah Smart (25:04)

Yeah.

 

Geoff (25:20)

with exercise, with stress reduction, vitamin D, which is now recommended in the UK by the National Health Service, all of these things are healthy. And so actually we’re actually reducing their risk of far more likely conditions by encouraging them to follow what we’re doing. So I think yeah, it’s just a a win win really.

 

Zillah Smart (25:37)

Yeah.

 

Yeah, absolutely. think that was something when I started training in nutritional therapy, was as I’m going through, I’m going, this is what I already do. You know, it’s not just focusing on MS. Actually, this helps all sorts of conditions. It helps just keep people healthy generally. And yeah, I think that was a light bulb moment for me, I think.

 

Geoff (25:57)

Mm.

 

So so since your diagnosis, which you you’ve mentioned you’ve you’ve been through different life stages, you’ve had motherhood, you’ve had work, you’ve changed your work, you’ve mentioned perimenopause. So how has your approach to lifestyle changed over that time?

 

Zillah Smart (26:20)

Yeah, yeah, it’s true. yeah, my approach has definitely changed. Although the pillars that I live to are, they’re pretty stable. I think at the beginning, I was much more focused on doing everything right. And yeah, I think on diagnosis, you want to feel safe. But over the years, I’ve become more interested in sustainability.

 

So supporting my nervous system and also compassion for myself. So how does that work? So I think being a mum changed things because suddenly my routines weren’t just about me. Sleep was disrupted. You had limited time and I had to make things work around family life. So that kind of taught me to keep things simple and focus on what I could do.

 

as my children got older, challenges have changed, but then so have the opportunities, you know, they’re more open to doing different things. So I’m constantly adapting to that too. Yeah, work also changed things. lot of stress with my past teaching and overcoming MS really influenced my decision to rethink that and eventually, retrain as a nutritional therapist.

 

Moving to Norfolk as well and creating a different kind of life was part of my own healing process. Not in a kind of magical sense, but in a very practical sense of reducing stress and living more in line with what supported me, now in perimenopause, I am learning again. It’s hormonal changes. They can affect…

 

you your sleep, your mood, your energy, temperature regulation, what your body feels and looks like and anxiety levels and resilience, you know, it kind of hits you pretty hard. The things that worked in my thirties don’t work in exactly the same way now. So with movement, I’ve had to pay more attention to things like strength training to keep my bones protected because as my hormones go down,

 

that hits you with more health potential problems for the future. So yeah, to keep my bones protected, do more strength work. I do martial arts because I found it really helps with brain health for keeping my mind switched on and sharp as well as fitness. With food, I’ve had to make sure I’m getting enough protein, which I think some people think that you could struggle with following the overcoming MS diet. It’s just about…

 

looking at different sources of protein, it’s, you know, it’s easily doable, but it’s just about making sure you get enough because as we age, our bodies become kind of less efficient at processing it. I’ve had to focus on managing my stress and anxiety. So meditation is really helping there and protecting myself from stressful situations as well. And, and yeah, I’ve had to double down on sleep because that has become a little bit more troublesome.

 

because of fluctuating hormones. so yeah, my approach, I would say it’s become less about control and more about listening. what does my body need in this season? What is realistic now? What needs adjusting? And then, you know, I tweak things as I go and as different things pop up. It’s just about understanding that symptoms are

 

the language of your body, it’s telling you that something’s a little bit out and you need to just tweak something. But that’s something that I would love people with MS to hear because your approach can evolve. You don’t have to do overcoming MS in exactly the same way at every life stage. mean, the principles stay the same. They’re there as that framework. But the way that you apply them,

 

can mature with you and how your life changes.

 

Geoff (30:07)

So in addition to the s the seven overcoming MS pillars, you’ve also mentioned sleep, so almost as an additional pillar. So what have you learned about the science of sleep and is it particularly important for people with MS?

 

Zillah Smart (30:21)

Yeah, I find sleep fascinating because it’s not passive as we all kind of believe it is. we just think, we close our eyes and that gives us a rest. And then we’re great, you know, fine for the next day. But actually, biologically, sleep is an incredibly active state. So during sleep, you’ve got the brain and the body are busy doing repair.

 

regulating the immune system, they’re processing memories and emotions, hormone regulation, restoring energy levels. There’s so much going on when we don’t realise it. So for people with MS, that matters because so many MS symptoms overlap with the systems that sleep supports. you know, issues with fatigue, cognition, mood.

 

pain sensitivity, inflammation and resilience of the nervous system. as many people know, sleep disturbance and fatigue are really common in MS. There’s I think there was a systematic review, I think it was 2023, which describes sleep disturbance and fatigue as common co-occurring symptoms in people with MS. And fatigue can actually affect up to 90 % of people with MS.

 

It doesn’t mean poor sleep is the only cause of that because fatigue in MS is complex, but sleep is one part of the picture that we can often work with. There’s growing interest in how sleep affects immune function and inflammation more generally. sleep deprivation has been linked with changes in innate and adaptive immune function and a more inflammatory state.

 

So with MS, we have to be careful, at this kind of early stage of understanding, not to over claim, but it makes sense that sleep should be part of the conversation when we’re talking about an immune mediated and inflammatory condition. know, sleep is also linked to cognitive function. People with MS often talk about brain fog, issues with finding words or processing speed.

 

And research has found that associations between sleep disturbance and cognitive outcomes in MS, including processing speed, learning and memory. Again, it’s not that sleep solves everything, but if someone is struggling cognitively, I’d be really interested in asking how well they’re sleeping. It’s one of the main sections of questions that I ask people that I work with. And is there anything that we can improve?

 

But I think sleep also affects how people follow the Overcoming MS programme because we all know that if you’re exhausted, it’s harder to cook from scratch. It’s harder to find the energy for exercise or to meditate or to make good choices when we’re shopping.

 

regulate our emotions. You know, if we’re really tired, it’s difficult to make decisions. So sleep, don’t think it’s just another health habit. It’s a foundation that supports the other habits,

 

Geoff (33:24)

And so how have you fine tuned your sleep routine? what does it involve to improve improve your sleep? And how have you dealt with that, with having MS and with having perimenopause?

 

Zillah Smart (33:34)

it’s always an experiment because I think I have it sorted and then something goes a little bit off and changes, but that’s life. I would say, so my sleep routine, because I’ve been focusing on it for the last few years, it’s become more intentional over time. So I’ve learned that good sleep,

 

doesn’t start at bedtime. I always thought it was about, you know, when you get into bed and how you get to sleep. But it actually starts in the morning and continues through the day because one of the biggest things for me is our circadian rhythm. So I try to get sunlight in my eyes early in the day, ideally outside and within half an hour of waking because morning light helps to anchor.

 

the body clock so I’ll often go outside with my first drink of the day you know I’ll you know go downstairs get my drink especially in this lovely weather I will wander outside just sit have that kind of bit of peaceful time for myself and just get that sunlight in my eyes because that is kickstarting our circadian rhythm and telling the body what kind of time you know you need to go to bed later

 

So then in the evening, I try to make my environment more sleep friendly. So dimmer lights, less stimulation, maybe a warm bath with Epsom salts so that the magnesium can help me relax and just having a bit of a slower transition into bed. Personally, I haven’t drunk caffeine since I was pregnant with my eldest 15 years ago, but I know caffeine can cause…

 

problems in sleep with some people. for caffeine, I’m not anti caffeine, but I think timing matters. So I think it’s important to try and keep caffeine to before midday if you find it’s causing you problems with your sleep. I often think about with food, if somebody’s waking in the night because they’re under eating, eating irregularly, drinking alcohol or having big blood sugar swings that can affect sleep. So

 

For me, I make sure I have enough protein and fibre throughout the day and not letting myself get depleted. That really helps. But with perimenopause, temperature regulation can become a real issue as I’m sure a lot of people can relate. So I think about keeping the bedroom cool, breathable bedding, layers, and reducing anything that might trigger night sweats, maybe alcohol.

 

Late heavy meals, stress. Some people are sensitive to spicy food. And if I do wake in the night, I try not to panic about it. I did for a long time. would wake, you know, three o’clock in the morning and instantly I think I’m never going to get back to sleep. never, you know, I need sleep and I would really worry about it. But that causes anxiety and that anxiety.

 

can actually become worse than waking up itself. So it’s really important. So that’s when I use my mindfulness tools, you know, focusing on the breath, softening the body, accepting that rest still counts. Even if you’re not asleep, rest is still doing its job. And also trying not to start problem solving at 3am. So if I’m having things going over and over in my mind, I will write them down and park them.

 

the next day I find that really helps but for MS specific disruptions it depends on the person I guess because the thing about MS is that everybody’s different isn’t it and there’s so many different symptoms but some people are woken by bladder symptoms or pain or spasms or restless legs or anxiety, medication timing can affect sleep and sensitivity to temperature.

 

And that’s where I think we need to have that compassionate approach. It’s not helpful for me just to say, you need to sleep more. To somebody whose nervous system or symptoms are disrupting their sleep, we need to ask what is getting in the way and work with that. So for example, if somebody was getting up repeatedly to go to the loo, but maybe they have mobility issues in getting, get into the toilet, might look at, you know,

 

having a kind of dim light on to light their way, making the route to the bathroom easier, simplifying that and maybe moving the bed closer to the bathroom. So yeah, it’s looking at unique challenges if you like being really compassionate because, you know, as we all know with MS we don’t…

 

know what other people are going through really because it is so unique and personal. But yeah, it’s just about having that conversation, finding out what the challenges are and trying to help and support for each individual person.

 

Geoff (38:09)

And and finally, is there anything else that you would like to share or if any tips that you have for making healthy lifestyle changes stick?

 

Zillah Smart (38:18)

I think the biggest thing is just sharing that lifestyle change isn’t about becoming a perfect person. It’s about creating support around yourself. And I think often when I’m speaking, you know, with clients or friends,

 

they’ll say, I just don’t have the willpower and they don’t think they have enough discipline. But most of the time it’s just about finding better systems and being more compassionate for yourself and taking smaller steps. don’t beat yourself up if you can’t do everything all at once. Because if a habit only works when you’re highly motivated, it probably isn’t cemented in your routine enough yet. And I guess the real test is if

 

a new habit can survive a busy week or a stressful week, a bad night’s sleep, family demands, you know, a day of low energy or stress. But I would definitely also think about starting with your identity rather than rules. So instead of thinking like, I must never get this wrong. It might be that you reframe that and think

 

I’m someone who supports my health in small ways every day. You know, just kind of speak to yourself a bit more kindly. And I think that feels very different, to, I can’t do this because it’s so difficult. And also create some non-negotiables for yourself, but keep them realistic. I have some things that I really wouldn’t move from and others that…

 

I understand that I can slightly bend sometimes. it could be I take my vitamin D, I have overcoming MS friendly food available, I move my body in some way every day, I try to protect my sleep, practice a few minutes of mindfulness each day. It doesn’t have to be half an hour, just five minutes. If you’re struggling with energy, just five minutes of gentle movement is enough. Because all of those small anchors add up.

 

and plan for the hard days, not just the ideal days. Have easy meals, have freezer options, have five minute meditation, you know, something to deal with a difficult week and definitely try and connect with others because MS can feel isolating and so can lifestyle changes. So if you can find an overcoming MS circle near you or just, yeah.

 

finding some way to connect with others that understand. And I think going from my diagnosis of feeling absolute complete hopelessness, know, what do I do in this moment? I’d say that hope matters, not false hope or guarantees, but grounded hope. And the idea that your choices matter, your body is worth supporting, you don’t have to do everything perfectly.

 

to make that difference.

 

Geoff (41:05)

So if anyone would like more information about Zilla’s work and the stuff we’ve talked about here, so do check out the show notes ’cause there’ll be a link to your website. And with that, just like to thank you very much for joining us, Zilla Smart.

 

Zillah Smart (41:18)

Thank you, Geoff. It’s been a wonderful time speaking to you today.