S4E24 The 100th episode with Dr. Jonathan White

(8:58) “I’ve always thought of the main OMS book as being a textbook, almost like a reference guide. Whereas the, Overcoming MS Handbook is a lovely light and easy [book] that you could dip in and out of. I loved reading it and I picked up lots of tips. And it was great to hear from the community itself.”

(13:39) “I think [the OMS charity] has been paradigm shifting and groundbreaking. That message of hope, of us giving people a sense of mastery. That the traditional description of this condition – and how it affects people – doesn’t have to be that way through relatively simple things that you can do for yourself. And I think that [message] came at a time where it was so needed. In fact, now it’s needed more than ever.” 

(20:41) “[The Overcoming MS Community] fills the bucket completely for me. It’s been a wonderful privilege professionally, as well, to be able to spend some time with people, like myself, living with MS. And to hopefully give them a little bit of information, to clarify some things for them and to maybe steer them in the right direction. And then to see the amazing changes that they implement in their lives. It is so gratifying professionally to be able to help someone like that.”

(25:40) “Dame Deborah James, who was a phenomenally passionate cancer campaigner, … sadly passed away in June, 2020. But her very last Twitter post….just spoke to me and I thought she’s put this so beautifully. This is exactly how I feel about OMS [Overcoming MS] and MS generally. So I’m going to use her quote. 
She said, ‘Find the life worth enjoying, take risks, love deeply, have no regrets and always, always have rebellious hope.’ And I just love the idea of rebellious hope, because that to me is me and it’s me and [Overcoming MS] OMS.”

Geoff Allix: Welcome to living well with MS Coffee Break a part of the Living Well with MS podcast family from Overcoming MS, the world’s leading multiple sclerosis, healthy lifestyle charity celebrating its 10th year of serving the MS community. I’m your host, Geoff Allix. Today you’ll meet someone living with MS from our diverse and global Overcoming MS community. Our Coffee Break series invites you into the lives of each guest. They share their personal MS journeys and speak openly about their challenges and victories, large and small. We hope you find some common cause and a source of inspiration from the stories of these very special people. You can check out our show notes for more information and useful links. 

You can find these on our website at OvercomingMS.org/podcast. If you enjoy the show, please spread the word about us on your social media channels or leave a review wherever you tune into our podcast. Finally, don’t forget to subscribe to Living Well with MS on your favorite podcast platform so you never miss an episode. So get your favorite beverage ready and let’s meet today’s guest on Living Well with MS Coffee Break. 

Welcome to Living Well with MS coffee break number 36, where we’re pleased to welcome Dr. Jonathan White as our guest for this, our 100th episode in the Living Well with MS podcast series, Dr. White is a practicing and award- winning medical doctor in Coleraine, Northern Ireland, and also works with Overcoming MS as a medical advisor and event facilitator. As always your comments and suggestions are welcomed by emailing [email protected]. We hope you enjoy this episodes conversation with Dr. Jonathan White coming to you straight from Northern Ireland. So Dr. White, welcome to Living Well with MS Coffee Break. 

And, um, I I’ve, I would say, may I call you Johnny, but I have actually met you at, and you’re facilitator or retreat, and I’ve met you other events as well, and I’ve also interviewed you on the podcast. So I’m taking it. I can still call you Jonny.  

[00:01:59] Dr. Jonathan White: I think I’d rather you call me Dr. White actually.  

[00:02:01] Geoff Allix: Okay. Dr. White.  

[00:02:03] Dr. Jonathan White: Johnny’s absolutely fine of course. Yeah. No. Nice to be back, Geoff, thank you very much for the invitation  

[00:02:07] Geoff Allix: It’s so nice to have you on the program. It’s um, this is actually quite a special interview. Uh, several reasons. Um, firstly, your, uh, very special vital contributor to OMS. And we’ll talk about that a bit more in a minute. 

But, um, this is also the 100th episode of the, I haven’t actually counted them, but I’ve been informed this is the 100th episode of the Living Well with MS podcast series. Um, so this is an important milestone for that. And it’s also the 10th anniversary of OMS as well.  

[00:02:36] Dr. Jonathan White: My goodness. Well, um, then I’m, I’m extra honored to be here, Geoff. Thank you very much. Yeah. That’s that’s some achievement, 100 episode of your podcast is, is absolutely fantastic.  

[00:02:44] Geoff Allix: I know. I can’t really believe it. It was. Um, so yeah, when you were a retreat, it was in the planning stages.  

[00:02:50] Dr. Jonathan White: Yeah, I absolutely, I remember the, the first discussions about it and it’s brilliant. What is it three seasons now you’ve done?  

[00:02:55] Geoff Allix: No, well, this is the fourth. Yeah. Yeah.  

[00:02:57] Dr. Jonathan White: Well, there you go. There you go. Fantastic. What, what an accomplishment.  

[00:03:01] Geoff Allix: Um, and so the purpose of the Coffee Break series is to get to know some of the members of the OMS community, uh, from all around the world. Um, so today you are in the hot seat. So could you tell us a bit about your day to day life?  

[00:03:14] Dr. Jonathan White: I live on the north coast of Northern Ireland, which is a pretty wild and beautiful and rugged place. It rains a lot and it’s often not that warm. It’s also not that cool. So it’s, uh, not a bad spot to be. If you have MS. Um, I have two young kids, Angus and Struan. 

So daily life is pretty hectic for me, even if I wasn’t working, it would be a bit. A bit chaotic. So it’s, uh, early mornings and early to bed. It’s um, I, I still work four days a week for the NHS. So I’m, I’m in the hospital doing my real job in OB/GYN with an interest in early pregnancy. 

And current pregnancy loss. Um, so that keeps me pretty busy. Uh, every Friday is my OMS day, which is also pretty busy, lots of, uh, different things going on there with, um, answering queries from our community and writing blogs and doing podcast episodes and giving talks and webinars and all sorts of things. 

So. It’s pretty hectic there. Uh, I have to say, um, but I always try to make a bit of time for the things that are so important in the OMS program, which is obviously as you know, the bit of meditation, first thing in the morning or last thing at night. And when it’s not too boiling hot, like it’s been the last week. 

I like to do a, a. A bit of exercise when I can as well. And generally be in the outdoors.  

[00:04:25] Geoff Allix: I know it was mentioned in the intro show notes that you are award winning. So go on, pick yourself up. What have you recently won?  

[00:04:33] Dr. Jonathan White: Well, that’s, that’s very embarrassing. Thank you very much. Yeah. So, um, well, Uh, in April, 2022, we had our first, uh, Northern Ireland Health and Social Care Awards. 

And we were nominated and shortlisted for clinic of the year, which unfortunately didn’t win. But I did win, uh, uh, doctor of the year in, in, uh, Health and Social Care Awards, which is very humbling and, uh, very gratifying, but extremely embarrassing as well. and, and many people take the Mickey out of me many times a day, but it still. 

[00:05:05] Geoff Allix: Well, you are the best doctor in Northern Ireland. So  

[00:05:08] Dr. Jonathan White: Yeah, it’s these sorts of things, you know, you kinda making your own coffee and now where’s the red carpet? And do you think your head will get through that doorway and all of this sort of stuff, but it’s all I, I know it’s all done with love and infection, I think. 

[00:05:18] Geoff Allix: Um, so you mentioned OMS, but obviously you, you have MS as well. Um, so when were you diagnosed with MS and, uh, could you tell us a bit about the diagnosis? Cause yeah, it I’m guessing it was a little bit different if you are you you’re in the medical profession.  

[00:05:34] Dr. Jonathan White: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, um, I was diagnosed in the 2nd of October, 2015. 

My first symptoms occurred about three months before I was at a friend’s wedding. Uh, I bent my neck and I had crazy pins and needles. Tingling buzzing sensation from my sort of belly button down, which of course we now know it was Lhermitte’s sign. And, uh, I tried to ignore that, but I thought, well, that probably isn’t a good thing. 

Went to night shift the next night, trying to do a cesarean section. Couldn’t bend my head to look down which was bad, obviously. And then the day after that I took myself to my local emergency department, said, I’m pretty sure I’ve got MS. Was told, no, you don’t, you, you have a slip desk probably, but we’ll get you an MRI, uh, which they did the next day. 

And that demonstrated inflammatory lesions in my, my brain and my spinal cord. So yeah, I was, uh, sent away, told by the neurologist. Well, 50/50 might be, MS, might not. We’ll scan you again in six weeks. And if there’s any lesions there, we can, we can start treatment and you’ve got a diagnosis. So I duly came back six weeks later and was told, yep, you’ve got two more lesions. 

Two more lesions on that scan was how I was given my diagnosis as if you know us as two doctors were talking about a, a mythical third patient, um, Yeah, so it, yes, it was, it was different. Cuz I obviously had the insight to, to know that I something wasn’t right. And I thought I knew what it was and ultimately unfortunately I was, I was correct. 

[00:07:00] Geoff Allix: And then they didn’t sugar coat it because you’re a doctor.  

[00:07:03] Dr. Jonathan White: No, no. In fact, so I was given the MRI findings, um, sitting in a corridor of A and E. By the on-call medical registrar, um, which, uh, is not the way I would choose to break bad news to anybody. Um, and then yes, I was told by the consultant. No, I, and, and I can’t fault the fact that I was, I was seen too quickly. 

I got my MRI so quickly and I’m very grateful for that. But, uh, yes, I was told there are two more lesions on that scan rather than I’m really sorry, but you do have MS..  

[00:07:32] Geoff Allix: So, um, how did you come across the OMS program?  

[00:07:37] Dr. Jonathan White: Well, I think probably it was, I can’t really remember, but I, I, I think it was Dr. Google. If I’m being honest, I think I literally Googled “lifestyle MS.” 

And, uh, I I, the New York edition of the OMS book that time, the second edition popped up, you know, in it as a, sort of a picture on Amazon. And I, I read the blurb, bought it and I’m, and I’m not exaggerating to say, I think I read it from cover to cover in about 72 hours. And, uh, yeah, it I’ve, I’ve never looked back. 

It, it completely, it spoke to me as a doctor, as somebody with MS. It, it made complete sense to me. And I thought, this is what I’m gonna do.  

[00:08:15] Geoff Allix: Yeah, I think, I mean, I, I sort have sort of scientific background that really appealed to me to the evidence.  

[00:08:21] Dr. Jonathan White: Oh yeah. 1400 references is, can never be a bad thing. And you know, to, to read it, to hear, you know, another doctor, another person with MS speaking so clearly. And so passionately about the evidence and the science. Just it absolutely. It made perfect sense to me. I thought this is, this has gotta be the way to go.  

[00:08:41] Geoff Allix: Yeah. I think it’s good now actually having the Handbook as well. Cause the handbook is less.  

[00:08:45] Dr. Jonathan White: Absolutely.  

[00:08:46] Geoff Allix: You know, if someone’s not massively into science and, and then it’s yeah, it’s pitched more at a lay person. And then, but then if you really want the science and you’ve got this, still got both books, so you’ve got the really science one.  

[00:08:58] Dr. Jonathan White: I’ve, you know, I’ve always thought of the, the main OMS textbook or as being that a textbook, you know, almost like a reference guide. Whereas the, the Overcoming MS handbook is just a lovely light and easy thing that you could dip in and out of, actually, I, I loved reading it and I picked up lots of tips and it was great to hear from the community itself. And yeah, they’re two different things. I think that complement each other really, really.  

[00:09:19] Geoff Allix: Yeah, but I mean, if you, I mean, the Handbook still gives you all the advice. 

So, I mean, if anyone thinking the handbook it’s um, absolutely. But if you wanna look at yeah, like page and page and pages of scientific, um, references then  

[00:09:32] Dr. Jonathan White: I mean, the handbook gives you everything you need. It’s just, if you want a little bit more, you can, you can really go into it.  

[00:09:38] Geoff Allix: Um, so has the OMS program helped you in measurable waste? Do you actually feel that it’s, it has helped your MS?  

[00:09:47] Dr. Jonathan White: Well, obviously it’s incredibly difficult to tell what my MS would’ve been like had I not, um, adopted the OMS program, but I, I can hand on heart confidently say yes, it’s absolutely changed my life from head to toe I’ve, you know, I’m, I’m fitter, stronger. 

I’m two stone lighter. My symptoms are significantly less. Nearly all of my recent, well, yes, except for one, four years ago, my MRI scans have all been completely clear. I’m back at work. I’ve got a busy social life, crazy family life. Um, So I’ve changed career in a way I’ve obviously never planned to work as an advisor for an MS charity, but also, I don’t think I would’ve, uh, got into recurrent pregnancy loss, which is now a great passion of mine and, and something. I, I devote a lot of my energy to, and yes, it has completely changed my life and 100% for the better.  

[00:10:35] Geoff Allix: So you mentioned you you’re a medical advisor for OMS. So could you tell us. A bit about what that entails, how you got involved with that, that sort of thing.  

[00:10:43] Dr. Jonathan White: Well so how I got involved is, is quite a funny story. Um, obviously Gary McMahon, who was the first CEO of OMS, who, you know, well too, Geoff um, was put in touch with me by a mutual friend of ours called Greg Handrin, who lives in Northern Ireland, uh, who follows OMS. 

Very very courageously, basically put his story into our local newspaper to try and sort of raise a bit of awareness about OMS. And I contacted him and we chatted, we met and he said, listen, you know, OMS are desperate for anybody medical, you know, following the program to, to sort of, to be able to speak to that program, to the community. 

And I said, well, I’m not sure. You know how well I could do that. I’ve only been diagnosed about a year. They said, no, no, please, please speak to Gary McMahon, speak to him. So I spoke to Gary and he denies that this happened, but I knew, I remember vividly happening, uh, was that he basically said, listen, we’re gonna start retreats again. 

And, um, you need to think about whether or not you think you could do them. And, uh, basically he asked me to jump off a cliff and I did without the parachute. I just thought this is absolutely something I need to be involved in and I care passionately about. So we, we started off sort of talking about how we’d run events with UK based facilitators rather than getting people over from Australia all the time. And in fact that worked so well that we had to go out to Australia to to help them eventually. But so it started off with the, the one day events and, and the five day retreats. So the first thing I ever did for OMS was October 7th, 2017, and, uh, the Amex event at, at Brighton football club, which was absolutely incredible. 

You know, that was the first time I’d met the OMS community really face to face over 300 people. And it just, just lit my fire thought this is an absolutely phenomenal cause to be involved in and you know, aligned with what I was trying to do personally, as well as my professional background. So I, I started in that sort of way and, and then was able to devote some time each week to it. 

And so I started answering medical queries, coming from the community around the world and, and trying to help ’em make sense of issues they might be having with the program. And then George Jelinek sort of asked me to write some blogs onto research articles and get a bit of information out to the community that way. 

It’s just sort of naturally expanded to doing webinars during COVID and podcast interviews for yourself and, and other people and, and advising sort of the charity just with my community as an OMSer or hat on, and also my background to try and work out ways forward in various areas and projects and things. 

So it’s a really varied role. Um, it’s always changing and it’s, it’s always exciting. And I think my, my motto for it is if I can do it, my diary’s free. I just say yes, which maybe isn’t always the best thing but it, it certainly is an extremely rewarding way of, of, you know, it’s and it’s really unusual, you know, career, uh, to have alongside that’s sort traditional NHS medical career. 

So it’s, yeah, it’s fantastic. And I love it.  

[00:13:26] Geoff Allix: Um, so we mentioned OMS celebrating its 10th birthday this year, so yeah, it’s a, a big milestone for the organization and the community. Um, what are your impressions about the work that OMS has done in its first 10 years?  

[00:13:39] Dr. Jonathan White: I think it’s been. Uh, paradigm shifting and groundbreaking, you know, that message of hope of us giving people a sense of mastery that the traditional description of this condition and how it, it affects people doesn’t have to be that way, uh, through relatively simple things that you can do for yourself. And I, I just think that came at a time where it was so needed. And in fact, now it’s needed more than ever. 

And, and I’m really happy to say it’s, it’s being listened to increasingly by people who are in the world, living with MS, but also health professionals who are looking after people with MS. And it’s just a. It’s it’s been an, an incredible rise for such a small charity, just full of really passionate like-minded people to now, you know, to, to have such a, a global presence and that tagline they use about being the world’s leading healthy lifestyle charity in MS. I think is, is perfectly apt and, and really appropriate. I think we are world leading and our work is just so, so important and needs to get to even more people around the world who are affected by this condition.  

[00:14:41] Geoff Allix: Yeah. I mean, something literally just this week, there’s a new member of, of, uh, my OMS circle who was talking about her first meetings with the neurologist and MS nurse. And she said she’d actually been shown that, um, Overcoming MS Book by her MS nurse. She had the same MS nurse as me. Now that same exact person said to me when I was first diagnosed, when I had through Dr. Google found Overcoming MS and said. Said to her and my neurologist, what do you think about me following this? 

You know what, I’d be interested in, what your thoughts are on, on this approach. And, and my neurologist was, was pretty positive, but my MS nurse said, well, really, I think you’ve gotta live a little, and, you know, cutting out loads of food and doing all these things is, you know, you probably just wanna enjoy yourself and why you still can kind of situation 

Um, the same, very same person is now actually advising people to have a look at the Overcoming MS book. So that’s a change that’s been made in five years.  

[00:15:48] Dr. Jonathan White: That’s just a, that’s just a perfect, perfect example, uh, of, you know, a lot of very hard work behind the scenes, but also generally, you know, we’re very fortunate that lifestyle and healthy lifestyle in many chronic conditions is getting a lot more sort of head space. 

And it’s, it’s much more out there, much more present than it was when I was diagnosed near seven years ago. And, you know, I was told exactly well, pretty much exactly the same thing. I, you know, I asked specifically about diet lifestyle and was told there’s no evidence for any of. And I think that that wasn’t right then, but it’s certainly not right now because the evidence based now is just overwhelming. 

Um, for, even if it’s not specifically an OMS style diet, but the, the rule of, you know, a high quality diet is just irrefutable now I think, in, in, in MS. And it’s fantastic to see.  

[00:16:32] Geoff Allix: Just in life. I think it increased 

[00:16:34] Dr. Jonathan White: Absolutely. I mean, there’s nothing, you know, I get querries all the time, you know, do you think this would be sense for my partner to, to, you know, to, to start and to get involved in and they don’t have MS? 

And you think, well, the answer nearly a hundred percent of the time is absolutely. What is there to loose, you know, it’s important you in your journey with MS to keep you well, but it also helps to prevent huge majority of the chronic conditions that kill so many of us make us sick in the western world. You know, this is, uh, in my view has always been a complete no brainer. 

[00:17:01] Geoff Allix: Yeah. Um, so we mentioned that the first 10 years, where would you like to see Overcoming MS go in the next 10?  

[00:17:12] Dr. Jonathan White: I think I would like Overcoming MS to, to cease, to be relevant in 10 years time, to be honest because I , I don’t mean that the charity should fold and we should all go home, but I would like it to be so mainstream that every person diagnosed with MS and people who have had MS for a considerable period of time. And they come to see their, their healthcare professionals are told that healthy lifestyle is absolutely key to good health and living well with this condition. And therefore we don’t have that job to do, and we could focus on something else. There’s plenty of problems to solve around the world. But, um, I, I would in all seriousness hope that every person who has given a diagnosis of MS is told about the recommendations underpinning OMS and, and I, and I fully believe that that can happen. 

[00:18:00] Geoff Allix: Well, no, I think the, the changes that I’ve seen since diagnosis, that definitely it’s moving in that direction. Yeah. And yeah, it does seem like it. And just, I mean, I quite like the books of, uh, Rangan Chatterjee who’s a doctor in the, in the UK. Yeah. He’s not talking about MS. He’s just talking about health, but literally he’s saying follow the OMS guidelines. 

He doesn’t, you know, I don’t even know if he’s aware of us. He doesn’t mention by him, but he sort of eat whole foods. Do exercise, mind, manage your stress. Yeah. All those things that we are talking about. Yeah. He’s saying that this is just for everyone. This is for the whole community. 

. Um, and yeah, you’re gonna live a healthier, happier life, so there’s good.  

[00:18:41] Dr. Jonathan White: There’s no downside as far as I can see.  

[00:18:44] Geoff Allix: No, that was when I started it. The only downside was cheese, I quite like cheese.  

[00:18:49] Dr. Jonathan White: So did I, but do you know what I wouldn’t eat cheese now if I didn’t have MS. Couldn’t do it.  

[00:18:53] Geoff Allix: No, I, and I don’t even fancy it. I think you get used to a different diet. So the fattiness of it, that sort of like, I just like, no, it doesn’t appeal.  

[00:19:00] Dr. Jonathan White: It’s just a habit. You can change any habit. Your new habit becomes the habit, you know? Yeah. I, I, nothing but meat in cheese and now I couldn’t go near the stuff.  

[00:19:08] Geoff Allix: And vegan cheese is basically cardboard. 

[00:19:11] Dr. Jonathan White: Full of Palm oil.  

[00:19:12] Geoff Allix: No need for that either.  

[00:19:13] Dr. Jonathan White: Yeah, no, I, no, no, absolutely not. Pizza’s better without cheese  

[00:19:16] Geoff Allix: Oh, I try and convince someone in America. They have pizza, they go, we have vegan cheese. Like, can I just take it without cheese? In Italy they’re fine with the concept.  

 Anyway, um, so, um, one of the things, I mean, so we talk about this sort of pillars of OMS. One of the things, not really one of those pillars is community, but that is something that’s brought up by other people that’s saying, well, you know, actually, being in a community, doing these things makes things much easier, much more likely you follow through. 

So, OMS has a very good community approach and you are part of that fabric of the community. So what role has community played in your MS journey and how, how has that been important?  

[00:19:54] Dr. Jonathan White: Oh, it it’s, it really can’t be overstated, Geoff, you know, it’s just, it’s so important. And so integral that it’s, it’s something it’s almost like breathing. 

I don’t really think about it now, you know, almost seven years in. I, I agree completely if there was no OMS 2.0, and maybe there one day there will be community would be absolutely right at the heart of that because, you know, I’ve met just some of the most wonderful and inspiring people since my diagnosis. Now I am very lucky to call some of them friends. 

You know, my, my colleagues, my fellow facilitators are some of my closest friends, even if I don’t see them for three years as has been the case with COVID whenever we, we hook up again, it’s just like, there’s been a comma in the middle of a sentence, you know, we just pick up from where we left off and it’s just absolutely amazing. 

It’s it’s uplifting and it fan just, yeah. Fills up. Yeah, it fill, fills the bucket completely for me, but, you know, it’s, it’s just a, it’s been a wonderful privilege professionally as well to, to be able to spend some time with, with people like myself, living, just people living with MS like me and to hopefully just give them a little bit of information and to clarify some things for them and to maybe steer them in the right direction and then to see the amazing changes that they implement in their lives. 

And that is just so gratifying, you know, professionally to be able to, to help someone like that. But do you know it it’s just. COVID is you don’t need me to tell you it’s been absolutely horrendous and really difficult for, for everybody, but for people with MS, especially it can be extremely isolating. And I think that the OMS community has, has shown itself to be that true force for good. 

You think about all of the digital things that we’ve had to do, how we’ve had to change. And, and I don’t mean officially that, you know, the charity, but just generally, you know, all the circles meetings that happened online, the WhatsApp groups, the, you know, meeting for digital drinks in the sun and all of these wonderful, wonderful things that kept you on the straight and narrow whenever times got tough and, and, you know, the nights seemed pretty bloody dark, to be honest. Um, and it is just such an important thing. Uh it’s it’s phenomenal. I, I always used to talk, I can’t, I dunno if you remember, but at the end of every retreat they would sort of ask you, you know, the one thing you wanted to take away. 

And my thing was always, you know, to look around you in that room and, and sense of becoming part of a tribe because humans are a, you know, we we’re pack animals. We don’t want to be on our own, whether we think that or not. And to have that sense of community, a tribe around you is just an incredibly uplifting and empowering thing. 

[00:22:19] Geoff Allix: Yeah. I mean, I, when I was first diagnosed and, and came across OMS, there was one other person in, in the whole county of Devon, which is a big, big county in, in the UK. Um, that, that I met once. And never again. And then the next group of people I met was actually at the retreat where I met you and yeah. And that was just then it sort of, it started. 

And then I sort of, okay. It wasn’t called circles at the time, but we sort of have a local meeting, met like a couple of other people, but now. I think we’re up to nearly in the Southwest of the UK, we we’re, it was about 50 people, I think. And it’s, it’s really, really regular. It’s just constant chat and, and, and that’s a, a benefit in a way, if you can take any benefits from the COVID thing was because we had to go digital that now that won’t change, that there’ll always, that will always be there. 

Now we have had physical meetups now as well, but we’ll always have that, you know, that digital side of it, which is really, really good.  

Absolutely.  

[00:23:16] Dr. Jonathan White: Yeah. And, you know, necessities, a mother of intervention. I, I think that there, it does make things more accessible and more convenient and there’s definitely still a place for digital, but yeah, I, I love a good old face to face if, if it’s possible. 

[00:23:28] Geoff Allix: Yeah. And so to change subjects a bit to you as a person, could you tell us a few things outside your medical work and outside OMS that you’re passionate about and any favorite hobbies or pasttimes that you have?  

[00:23:41] Dr. Jonathan White: Yeah, so obviously I have two young children, uh, that takes up loads of my time. I, I love time with them outdoors, enjoying the you’re very fortunate to live in a, a pretty awesome part of the country and beautiful countryside and coastline all around us. 

So exploring that is one of our big things we love doing that. Um, I’m a big fan of sport, particularly rugby. And I just would have to mention that Ireland are not officially the world’s best rugby team, which is, you know, no mean feet. And we did beat the All Blacks twice in a week. So that, that give me some, some great happiness and joy in the last week. 

Um, so yeah, I love watching rugby and I am quite a keen cyclist. I cycled around Ireland for another charity actually, when I was at university. Um, I’m not planning to do that again, but who knows might do something else on a bike. I find that really gives me a sense of sort of mindfulness and stillness and calm when I’m out on a bike for a couple of hours on a Sunday morning. I don’t have anything to think about or worry about. Um, I love reading. I love history, which I didn’t at school. Funnily enough. I had to do science at school. So I, I wasn’t really interested in history, but now I love it. I think it gives you such important context for where we are and where we’re going. 

Although it seems people don’t take the lessons from history, all that often at the minute. Um, and. Yeah, I love, I love music and film and yeah, I am a, I, I think I’m a fairly varied person. Who’s interested in lots of different things. And of course I love spending time with my, my friends and my family too. 

[00:25:05] Geoff Allix: And, uh, with that, Jonny, uh, thanks so much for being on the Living Well with MS Coffee Break and allowing our communities to get to know one of its own a bit better, but we do have one last question, uh, that we always ask as a tradition, uh, on the coffee break. So if you were to tap into your experiences with MS, generally in OMS, specifically for a nugget of wisdom that might help people, particularly if they’re newly diagnosed or they newly adopting the OMS program, what would that advice be? 

[00:25:32] Dr. Jonathan White: Well, I’m gonna shamelessly plagiarize somebody who’s much cleverer than me, which is what I usually do, as you know, Geoff, um, some of your listeners might be aware of somebody called Dame Deborah James, who was a phenomenally passionate, uh, cancer campaigner, who was diagnosed with stage four bowel cancer about four years ago and created the You, Me and the Big C podcast, which was just remarkably successful and supportive for people living with cancer, increasing awareness of it. 

And sadly, she passed away in June, 2020. But her very last Twitter post, um, popped up the next day. And, and I, it just spoke to me and I thought this is just, absolutely, she’s put this so beautifully. This is exactly how I feel about OMS and MS generally. So I’m gonna use her quote if that’s okay with you. 

Um, she said, “find the life worth enjoying, take risks, love deeply, have no regrets and always, always have rebellious hope.” And I just love the idea of rebellious hope, cuz that to me is. Is me and it’s me and OMS.  

[00:26:31] Geoff Allix: That’s brilliant. And I think I, it is mentioned by George Jelinek. I think he start, he refers to his faith, but just that idea, if you, if you have an optimism, if you have a belief, you have hope then actually it’s not just that you feel better. It’s actually medically proven to have a better outcome.  

[00:26:53] Dr. Jonathan White: Absolutely. We always know the best prognostic outcomes come from those with, uh, sense of mastery empowerment, positivity, absolutely. And has measurable effects on your immune system, which is never a bad thing. When you have a chronicled immune condition.  

[00:27:05] Geoff Allix: And that’s a placebo effect. I mean, placebos work. If you give someone a sugar tablet and you tell them it’s the world’s greatest drug ever, actually people get a bit better.  

[00:27:16] Dr. Jonathan White: If they’re not negative things, we should harness that. That’s the mind body connection. Yeah, absolutely rebellious hope. Yeah.  

[00:27:21] Geoff Allix: Brilliant. I shall take that with me. So thank you very much for joining us. 

[00:27:25] Dr. Jonathan White: Thank you very much, Geoff. Good to talk to you again. Take care, right.  

[00:27:31] Geoff Allix: Thank you for listening to this episode of Living Well with MS Coffee Break, please check out this episode’s show notes at OvercomingMS.org/podcast. You’ll find all sorts of useful links and bonus information there. 

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The Living Well with MS Family of podcasts is for private non-commercial use and exists to educate and inspire our community of listeners. We do not offer medical advice. For medical advice. Please contact your doctor or other licensed healthcare professional. Our guests are carefully selected. But all opinions they expressed are solely their own and do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of the Overcoming MS charity, its affiliates or staff.