S3E4 Ask Jack: Healthiest cookware options

Geoff Allix 

Hi, I’m Geoff Allix, host of Living Well with MS, the podcast from Overcoming MS.

Jack McNulty 

Hi, I’m Jack McNulty a professional chef, and serious OMS foodie. Welcome to ‘Ask Jack’, a special Living Well with MS podcast series, where I’ll be answering food and cooking related questions submitted by you, our Overcoming MS community.

Geoff Allix 

If you’d like to submit a question for a future episode of Ask Jack, please email us at [email protected] that’s [email protected] and now, let’s rev up our appetites and dig into this episode. Welcome to the first episode of Ask Jack, where we put food related OMS questions to professional chef Jack McNulty. Thanks, Jack for embarking on this special series and for giving us your food and cooking expertise.

Jack McNulty 

Thanks Geoff, It’s a very kind welcome indeed, I’m really very excited about answering the questions from our very special OMS community and I’m really looking forward to the series.

Geoff Allix 

So so far, we’ve collected over 20 questions from our community on all manner of food and cooking related subjects. We’ve grouped these up by category and I’ll go through each of these categories and get Jack’s expert opinion on each of the questions. Thanks, everyone who’s submitted a question and feel free to submit more questions for future Ask Jack episodes by emailing them to [email protected]. So we’re going to start out with cookware and as many people are curious about what types of pots and pans to use, the health of different materials like nonstick, for example, so could you let us know what your thoughts are about different cookware options?

Jack McNulty 

Sure, I think it’s an excellent place to start. It’s actually, I would say the most common question I receive from other people. What kind of pan do I use? What kind of pot do I use? And I think it’s important when you start to address this topic is that there’s no single pot or pan out there that’s perfect. But all of them have certain elements that are worth considering, depending on how you’re cooking or what you’re making. What’s important is and the goal for any cookware is to conduct heat evenly and efficiently and be chemically unreactive. So those are the two things that all manufacturers are trying to achieve and this point, nobody has achieved 100% reliability on either one. So let’s just quickly go through the options that are out there and we’ll start with ceramics. So ceramics are things like earthenware, stoneware, even glass is considered a type of ceramic. So ceramics are the most chemically stable, they’re very unreactive, and they don’t affect taste or flavors whatsoever in the cooking process. The drawback about ceramics, is actually two of them. First of all, they’re not terribly good at higher temperatures, they’re really effective when you’re cooking at a moderate to low temperature over a long period of time, because they hold their heat really well. The other problem with ceramics would be on the glazing, so most of this is outlawed anymore with lead glazing, but if you do happen to get some cheaper quality ceramic, that’s certainly something to be concerned with as lead will leach out in the cooking process and that can be fairly harmful, especially when you’re cooking acidic foods. That’s something to look for if you’re using ceramics, make sure it’s lead free. Enamel ware, is a type of ceramic so that’s basically the same thing as ceramics, but it’s been coated with powdered glass to create sort of a protective layer. This would be a pot like a brand like a Le Creuset most people are familiar with that. That’s a type of enamelware, so this is protecting the food from any sort of chemical reaction, but it also has the same issues as normal ceramics, meaning it can be chipped rather easily, not as easy as pure ceramic, but still, you have to be careful with the utensils you’re using. And it’s also susceptible to chipping with rapid heating or rapid cooling, that sort of thing. So that’s the first area ceramics. The second type of cookware would bem so I’ll say it first in American English; Aluminum, and then in normal English; aluminium, depending on where you are in the world. That is a type of cookware that’s extremely good in terms of conducting heat, It’s one of the best when it comes to even distribution of heat, but it can also be reactive to food, which means that acids or alkalize, can discolor food when cooked into aluminium pans or aluminum pans. Thats just something to sort of keep in mind, there is a product called an anodized, aluminium or aluminum pan, that’s basically just creating a protective layer, that protects against this sort of discoloration and reaction with food. Copper is the other kind of popular metal, I guess that’s used in cookware, it’s the best in terms of conductivity, heat conductivity, it’s expensive and there are also health issues that come with copper, which is why most copper pans are actually lined with a stainless steel or tin, sort of thin layer. The problem with those layers is they’re very susceptible to high heat, meaning anything over 230 degrees celsius or 450 degrees fahrenheit. That means not so good on a direct heat on stove top, using a high heat or something like that, the pan will sort of blow up on you. Iron and Steel are probably some of the most popular and these are where I get the most questions with cast iron or carbon steel. They’re a good conductor of heat, but their problem is they corrode very easily and even though they absorb and hold heat very well, you have this problem with corrosion, which is not the healthiest of situations when it comes to cooking, you can get over that by what’s called seasoning the pans and seasoning the pans is basically filling the little porous holes, very microscopic porous holes, with oil, usually a highly unsaturated oil and cooking that over a period of a couple of hours in a low oven temperature and that creates a sort of protective layer in the pan. That’s what’s was meant when you say; when you season the pan, or how to season a pan. And that protective layer actually works nicely in terms of creating a slight nonstick environment as well. The problem is it’s very susceptible to being scraped off because it’s very thin, so you have to be careful what kind of utensil you use in that pan and also cleaning up that pan, you don’t want to use a corrosive sponge of any nature or put it in a dishwasher, it’s usually just wiped out clean, If it’s seasoned well it cleans very easily.

Geoff Allix 

So in an OMS friendly way, I assumed that you couldn’t season a pan, in an OMS friendly way. But you could just use olive oil, for example and then what temperature would you put it in the oven?

Jack McNulty 

I actually wouldn’t even use olive oil, I’d use something a bit cheaper. This is one of the very, very few uses of something that a kind of oil that would be highly processed for instance, because that oil is not ever being absorbed in any food that you’re putting in. It’s basically just working as a filler, It would be the same thing as flaxseed or commonly referred to as linseed, like a linseed oil is a primer that you can put on wood before you paint it and it hardens and it’s just filling in porous gaps, not that that’s ever going to be used for anything other than just creating a surface and the same thing sort of applies when seasoning a pan, you’re just putting that oil in there, you’re putting it in a temperature environment, I would say around 180 degrees celsius or 350 degrees fahrenheit for anywhere from one to two hours and that creates itself, it fills those porous holes and it creates a sort of microscopic, hardened texture that doesn’t release unless you chip it away and that’s why you want to be careful with the utensils that you’re using. Stainless steel is the other type of element that is commonly used, so stainless steel is basically a mixture of iron and carbon, it is the most expensive of all of the options that are out there. It’s relatively poor in conducting heat, but it’s very nonreactive in terms of food. The way manufacturers get around that conduction issue is they create a layer of either copper or aluminum something that’s highly conductive to heat on the bottom of the pan, and then that transfers the heat back up into the actual cooking surface or where the stainless steel is. It’s probably the closest that anybody has come to chemically inert or thermally responsive type of cookware, the pan, the stainless steel, I’ll get into that a little bit more and in some of the other questions in terms of how to do that in an oil free environment. Speaking of that, then there’s the nonstick environment and so this is where a lot of questions come up in the OMS world, is how do I use a nonstick pan, or should I use a nonstick pan, these sorts of things. So basically nonstick pans just have thin layers of compound and that can vary from things like Teflon or Silicone, to a number of other new modern sort of creation, some of which aren’t even disclosed on on the websites of the manufacturers. And basically, it’s just creating a sort of thin plastic like layer where the food doesn’t stick at all and so that’s, in essence, what a nonstick pan is going to do, all nonstick pans are going to have the same basic issues in terms of effectiveness; they’re not very good at high heat, which means you want to always make sure you’re keeping your heat under around 250 degrees centigrade, 500 degrees fahrenheit, so that means not good for the oven, not good when you’re blasting heat on your stovetop, which we shouldn’t be doing anyway and the other issue is they’re very susceptible to chipping. Cleaning up if you store your pans in the cupboard and don’t put a protective layer in between they get scratches and shelf life is generally really short with these pans; so two, three years maximum and someone pointed out, that’s probably why they’re the most popular pan sold on the market, because they have shortest time span. So something like stainless steel or some kind of ceramic or iron, steel combination is probably going to be your best bet for long term cooking.

Geoff Allix 

We got a question from a listener in the Netherlands, about whether there’s any type of cookware that would limit the amount of oil that you need to use?

Jack McNulty 

That’s a good question. So let’s go through those a little bit, when limiting oil, so if you’re using something like cast iron or carbon steel, you want to make sure that that pan is well seasoned and you make sure that you’re cleaning that pan effectively and according to manufacturer instructions, which means again, not in a dishwasher, no abrasive solutions on it and maybe once or twice a year re-seasoning the pan that will create a nice surface on that pan and it will make it effective in a very low fat environment. If you’re using something like ceramic, it’s very important to slowly heat the pan or pot and just only really using moderate temperatures, preheating the pan and pot is crucial, a lot of times in cooking, people are just impatient, shall we say? I’m hungry I want to eat, let’s get the pan on the stove, I’m not going to worry about heating it slowly, I’m going to blast it on full heat, Oh, it’s hot, let’s put the food in and that’s actually a mistake, that’s where you’re going to create more of the pores is that open and that’s where food will actually stick. Nonstick pans, new generation type pans like Green pans; it’s very important for those pans to slowly preheat and by doing so you’re going to create a very smooth surface They’re very effective with low-fat, no-fat kind of cooking, as long as it’s not too liquidy, something like a pancake powder or something of that nature. And again, you want to do low to moderate types of temperatures. Stainless steel, is what I use the most, it’s very important to preheat and I personally with stainless steel, allow my food to stick at times and I think that that’s an important consideration sometimes, like, if I want to caramelise onions, I will go ahead and allow that food to stick, which is easily released when you just add one or two tablespoons of some kind of water or moisture to the pan, all of that residue is released and there’s a lot of flavor there as well and so there’s never an issue of long term staining or sticking on the pan unless, of course you burn something. But that’s a whole other topic.

Geoff Allix 

So with your cookware it tends to be we’re sort of heading to more natural materials, if you like and we had a question from Duarte; he’s originally from Portugal, but now living in Poland, who wanted to ask about with food is there a big benefit to be fully organic and only consuming organic products?

Jack McNulty 

Yeah, that’s a really good question especially in our modern world where the world seems to be filled with micro plastics and pesticides and all of these other concerns that are out there. Personally, I try to choose organic whenever I have an option, it just seems a little bit of a better option. But I never allow pesticide stress, as I call it to prevent me from eating a wide variety of fruits and vegetables, regardless of how they’re grown. So my first emphasis is, let’s make sure I get what I need in my diet, secondly, I want to try to purchase something as safe or as healthy as possible. So that would be more of a second consideration than the first consideration.

Geoff Allix 

Okay, we talked quite a bit about oils there with cookware. So the second category we’re going to talk about is cooking with and without oils and fats, we’ve actually previously had a podcast episode, so I’d encourage people to listen back on that as well because there was a specific episode about cooking with oils with yourself. But for this one, we’ve got an OMSer in the UK who wanted to know if it’s okay to use extra virgin olive oil while roasting vegetables, now in the UK and a lot of countries it’s quite popular to have a roast dinner on a Sunday, so things like roast potatoes, roasted vegetables, is it okay to use extra virgin olive oil with that?

Jack McNulty 

Let me give you the simple one word answer to that; Yes. Now let me expand a little bit on on using oil, in any form of cooking really boils down to a personal choice; do I want to use it or not? I think that you’ll find in most recipes that have some kind of oil or fat in them, that can be eliminated quite effectively. In other words, the reason most fat is used or most oils, I’m just using that term interchangeably, the reason it’s used is purely personal satisfaction, you’re creating some kind of flavour in your mouth that is appealing to you whether it’s with texture or moisture or something of that nature that is the ultimate reason to use something like a fat or an oil in a recipe, in most recipes, I should say I’ll clarify that a little bit later on. So with respect to vegetables, in roasting vegetables in the oven, I think it’s important to understand that most vegetables are actually 60 – 80% water, there’s a lot of moisture already in a vegetable. That’s true with starchy vegetables as well as non starchy vegetables. The issue that’s going to happen when you put those vegetables in the oven is that water is going to rush to the surface and then rapidly evaporate, so over time as you’re cooking that vegetable, regardless of the temperature of the oven, it will just happen over time, sometimes quickly, sometimes longer, the water content of the vegetable will completely evaporate, and you’ll be left with something rather dry tasting. So now becomes the personal choice question and you can do this easily in your home using any kind of vegetable just to check to see where you stand on the whole issue with oils and roasting of vegetables. So if you work with carrots, for instance, if you put carrots in the oven and roast them, assuming they’re all cut roughly the same size, let’s just say for the sake of argument at 190 degrees celsius/or about 375 degrees fahrenheit, and you roast those carrots for about 15 minutes, they’ll take on a sort of a wilted look, and they’ll dry out rather rapidly and you eat it, it’s going to taste okay, but dry. Now, if you take those same carrots, and before you put it into the pan in the oven, and you just put it in a bowl and just lightly toss it with enough oil to just coat the surface, then cook that in the oven under the same scenario and situation, same temperature, same timeframe, what’s going to happen is that oil is going to create sort of a protective barrier on the surface of the carrot, it will stop some of the water from evaporating, preserving the moisture internally and it will also help with the external sugars that may exist on the surface of the carrot to start browning or caramelising and that usually occurs at around 110-120 degrees celsius, that’s around 250 degrees fahrenheit, I believe something of that nature, it will start to caramelise, take on a sweet flavor. So your texture is going to be different, your flavour is going to be different and the internal sensation will be different. Some people prefer the first rather than the latter, some people see other way around, what you can do with non oil, roasted vegetables is go ahead and cook them the way you want to and then add the elements after the cooking process, so you can add a vinegarette, you can add spices, you can add a sauce to all of those things, and then it makes the difference relatively minimal.

Geoff Allix 

And we’ve had a question from Johanna in Berlin, who wants to know about using water to temper the temperature of oils when combined during cooking. So you’re reducing that from a frying temperature down.

Jack McNulty 

Yeah, I think we touched a little bit about that on the previous podcasts we did with oil, but just again, for those that may have missed it, water boils or comes to a boil at around 100 and 100 degrees celsius or 212 degrees fahrenheit, assuming you’re at sea level, and there are other things that come into play there. But just for general purposes, let’s just stick with that number, so that’s where water will, in essence vaporise and that’s what boiling is, it’s just the water molecules vaporising into air, they hit an equal equilibrium at that point. So adding things to the water will drop the boiling temperature, like salt will drop the boiling temperature down, adding something like oil to the water will also drop it slightly. But it’s not very significant, what won’t happen and what can’t happen is as long as water exists, anything that’s in there cannot exceed the boiling temperature. So well inside water once it comes to that boiling point that’s the maximum that that temperature the oil will get is the boiling point until that water is gone and then of course the oil will heat above that point, so yeah, using water to temper the temperature of oil is very effective. That’s why in an oven, you’re going to have that scenario where the water is evaporating on the surface and tempers the temperature of the oil on the surface as well.

Geoff Allix 

Okay, yeah, I think you might of answered this already, but Johanna also asked about how to get crispy texture on vegetables when cooking in an OMS compliant way?

Jack McNulty 

Yeah, the crispy texture, Hmm, who doesn’t like a good crispy piece of potato with a really soft interior, I think that’s what we all are trying to search for is that sort of crispyness with the internal softness. So there are ways to do that, nut maybe if we just look at it in a more general term, you can kind of visualise this, basically what’s happening when you create a crispy exterior on any vegetable, is the natural sugars from the starches or natural sugars that exists on the surface will start to caramelise, it’s much the same as taking sugar, putting it into a pan, turning on the heat watching the sugar melt and eventually start turning colour and it will start increasing in different flavour molecules until it gets to the point of over caramelising, turning dark and then bitter. The same thing happens on the surface of a vegetable when it reaches a certain temperature point and again, that happens relatively low when the process starts, the sugars begin to caramelise and as they caramelise the hard as they cool and that’s what gives the crispy texture of any sort of vegetable. So in order to achieve that, the best way to create that crispy exterior with a soft interior is using a higher temperature. So in an oven, that’s why I have no problem roasting something at a relatively high temperature, I usually roast between 210 Celsius and 220 Celsius, which is, what is that around 420 to 450 Fahrenheit, something of that nature, relatively high, that’s going to cook the vegetable quickly on the exterior caramelise the sugars and keep the interior relatively soft and moist before all of the water evaporates and if you do that quickly, you’re not exposing the surface at a longer period, which can be harmful. In some cases, it’s probably more harmful to cook at a lower temperature for a longer period than a higher temperature for a shorter period.

Geoff Allix 

Okay, and we’ve had another listener from Germany asking about air fryers, and they’ve become quite popular recently. I’ve actually I’ve got an air fryer and I do use it but I use it for convenience, I don’t really understand what the difference is. So what is the difference between an air fryer and a regular oven? Or a fan oven and which method is better for cooking?

Jack McNulty 

Yeah, I have to say I was really pleased to hear that this question was on the podcast because it seems I am confronted with the airfryer question about three times a week for the last several months, it seems to be one of the most trendy cooking items that are out there. So first of all, what an air fryer is basically a mini convection oven, that’s basically what it is. It’s just it’s a small oven that has a circulating fan, works at a higher speed than a normal convection oven. So the reason these things are important is the smaller surface area is going to circulate heat much quicker and with a fan that’s moving fast, it’s going to circulate around the food in an even and faster method than a normal sized oven, even with a fan on, it’s just going to work faster in that small environment. Interestingly, most manufacturers with airfryer’s still recommend using a small amount of oil. Obviously, they’re trying to achieve the same sort of texture that you would get from deep frying but without submerging something in fat. So you can use an air fryer without any fat whatsoever, you’ll have more success with creating that sort of deep fried effect, if you will, If you use a small amount of oil and surround your food before you put it into the basket and then cook it, personally, I don’t use one because I think I’ve sort of lost my taste for that style of food. I can see where they have a big appeal, especially in the OMS community if you have a family and you’re trying to feed kids as well, which I don’t. But whether it’s necessary or not, that’s a personal decision. I think Geoff, you hit it completely on the head when you said that you do it mostly for convenience.

Geoff Allix 

Yeah, If my daughter wants a fries, and I can cook up a sweet potato, it’s like get the airfryer. But they’re very small size, so you can’t cook for any sort of number of people.

Jack McNulty 

So there are some obvious limitations involved with an air fryer. I personally, I would suggest if someone who’s considering purchasing an air fryer to really give it a lot of thought in terms of, is this something I want? Because I want the occasional fry? And is it really worth the money invested? Or can I try to achieve the same sort of thing using my own oven with a convection fan? Which in most cases, the answer would be yes.

Geoff Allix 

Okay, um, we’ve got another question, which it’s sort of a timely question actually, in a way is the wrong time for the question, because it needs nearly a year before this is really necessary, because we’ve just had Shrove Tuesday which in in the UK, at least, is Pancake Day and so Nicola from Canterbury in the UK has found lots of OMS from friendly pancake recipes, but couldn’t find a way of cooking them without using any oil. She’s said she saw a recipe on the OMS website that suggests using a tiny amount of oil rubbed around a nonstick pan, is that okay to do?

Jack McNulty 

Okay, good question. Excellent question. One problem that may occur is the definition of pancake here. So it’s true that pancake day in the UK has just passed, for American’s Pancake Day is just about every weekend. So there’s different style of pancake that’s out there. So American style pancakes are thick and generally don’t take up the whole size of a pan, they’re not real, real big, say, what’s 12 centimeters or six inches or so, something of that nature and usually served in stacks. So a UK style pancake is a little bit more akin to crepe and it’s a little thinner than an American style pancake and so that’s going to have some obvious challenges. American style pancakes are quite happy to be cooked in a nonstick environment without too much oil, crepes or thinner pancakes have a lot more problems. So let’s investigate that a little. This is actually one area where a nonstick pan, a good quality nonstick pan comes into play, because you don’t want to heat a pan too hot anyway, when you’re cooking a pancake or crepe style, you want to make sure the pan is well heated. So to give the pan first a small coating of oil is helpful, if I was to do it and when I do make the thin style or crepe, what I tend to do is I put a teaspoon or two of oil, usually extra virgin olive oil into the pan, but the pan is off the heat, it’s been reheated but off the heat, then I take just a piece of paper towel or so and I quickly rub it around and wipe out all of the excess and I’m just rubbing the bottom of the pan to make sure I get any oil into any pores that may have existed. So what’s happening when the pan heats is these little microscopic pores open up in any pan whether it’s nonstick or not and as soon as a little bit of fat goes in there, it fills it or food goes in there it will want to go into those holes and that’s what creates sticking. So the more of a type of surface protection that you have the better by adding a little bit of oil there you’re not really transferring a lot of oil to your finished product but you’re just creating a better environment to put something in a non stick manner. So again, it would be more of a choice as to whether you want to do that or not. Personally, I think that rubbing a small amount of oil in a pan and then cooking crepe in there is just fine and I think that you’ll find after cooking the first one or two pancakes the next few, if you’re cooking multiple ones will require no oil whatsoever so maybe give the first two to your dog or someone else in the family who’s not necessarily following the same diet.

Geoff Allix 

Okay and talking about cooking in temperatures. The OMS circle in Cardiff Wales asked about cooking fish and the 180 degrees centigrade or 350 degree Fahrenheit cap on cooking temperatures. So this has come up in the past and whether there’s a limit to the temperature we can cook at. So could you shed some light on this?

Jack McNulty 

Yeah, let’s just back up on, there seems to be two parts to that question. So the fish aspect, I’m assuming by that question that the person is asking about oily fish, and cooking oily fish and ways to cook oily fish, I’m guessing on that. Anything that’s like a piece of salmon or something of that nature can be cooked in many different ways. So you can saute it, grill it, bake it, stew it, poach it, there’s many different ways to cook that particular kind of fish. If you want to keep it as protective as possible in the OMS environment, then I would suggest doing something like poaching it, which is cooking at a relatively low temperature inside a liquid, a flavoured liquid. Stewing it, which is cooking it in a pan with a small amount of liquid, or baking it and often, baking can be done to create steam by wrapping it in some kind of paper or foil, which cooks the fish in a very safe manner and in essence, you’re just steaming the fish at that point. Sauteing and grilling become a little bit more problematic, although it’s possible to do either one. Sauteing it’s not necessary to use any oil in the pan at all, you can do the whole thing with salmon just on a piece of parchment paper, which is your protective layer and creates that non stick environment, it helps the fish brown, but it won’t stick on the paper and the way to do that is just to heat the pan, preheat it, put the fish directly onto the paper, season your fish and then just lower the fish on the paper directly onto the pan and let it cook that way. I generally if I was doing that, I would generally only cook one side of the fish and finish cooking the top half by just covering the pan for the last one or two minutes, which just cooks the top part more gently,  the bottom part is a little bit more of that crispy texture. So that would be the question on cooking the fish. In terms of the 180 degree cap, so this question still comes up quite often. So there’s a lot to discuss there, I know we went into quite a lot of detail on the earlier podcasts about this so maybe it helps to go back and re listen to that. But let’s talk about that, just briefly. The first question to ask yourself about the 180 degree cap is, is it a cap or? Or what is it that you’re trying to achieve? And so when someone asked me that question, you know, what’s the highest I can cook at? Or can I go over 180 degrees? My answer usually starts with well, what is it that you’re trying to achieve here with your health and with your cooking? And why are you asking the question? And more often than not people get stuck on this number that doesn’t really mean anything and they forget what the bottom line is. And the bottom line always has to be, for for people on the OMS lifestyle anyway always has to be what are we doing to protect and preserve our health? And so you’re trying to reduce instances of self generation you’re trying to reduce any incidents of inflammation, you’re trying to reduce any incidence of free radicals, all of these sorts of things that can occur, the 180 degrees is no magic number. So you can have a very unhealthy sort of way of cooking something at 160 degrees, which is around 220 degrees celsius. 180 degrees, by the way, is 350 degrees celsius or fahrenheit. But you can also have a healthy way of cooking something at a much higher temperature, just by cooking it for a shorter period of time and then the whole question of heat transfer comes into play which we went into a lot of detail on in the earlier podcast, but basically the temperature of an oven is not directly related to the temperature of the food when you cook it. In other words if your cooking temperature is 180 degrees Celsius or 250 degrees Fahrenheit, that by no means indicates that your surface temperature of the food, or internal temperature of the food is going to be that same temperature, it’ll be much, much lower. And that has to do with how heat gets transferred. The opposite is true by direct heat, by putting something on a grill or saute pan, that will be very closely correlated. So I would say there is no cap on the on the question of 180 degree Celsius and it’s quite safe to cook beyond that in many environments.

Geoff Allix 

And you mentioned before, if it has liquid in it, if there’s if there’s moisture in it, then that would self regulate, like a vegetable, for example.

Jack McNulty 

That’s exactly correct.

Geoff Allix 

And we’re talking about oil, so and baking, is it possible to make a savory pastries from Susan in England, could you make a savory pastry without any added fat or oil?

Jack McNulty 

Susan, if you have discovered a way to do that, we should probably talk offline about going into business together. There’s something interesting here about the role of fat, so I mentioned earlier that fat genuinely doesn’t have any place, or serve any role in a recipe other than personal pleasure. The obvious exception is within baking and so baking fats are sometimes quite useful to create the texture that you’re going after. And so just to explain that, so anytime you mix water with wheat, as in wheat flour, you’re going to create gluten, you can create gluten, just by mixing the two and doing nothing with it, gluten will just self-form in that environment, when you need it, it just lengthened out those gluten strands and gives whatever you’re doing a lot of strengthen, and they capture air and all of those sorts of things. This is in essence pasta. So pasta is just flour and water mixed together, kneeded for a long time, creating the strong gluten network. When you introduce fat into the equation, what fat will do is it will take that gluten network and shorten it, which is why fats are always called shortenings, by the way, and they’re just shortening the gluten network and by doing that you create a different texture. So instead of that strong pasta like texture, you’re gonna get something much more similar to a cake, where it’s going to be crumbly, something like shortbread, which has its name because it’s shortening and gluten creating a kind of bread, this crumbly texture and that’s where fat comes into play. So a pastry or a pie dough, if you will often, people want to have that sort of flaky texture and that flaky texture is only caused because of two reasons; the oil or fats that are in that dough, as well as any moisture that may cause that dough to rise during a baking process and create that steam that’s in between the layers and so that creates that sort of pastry like texture. So to create a savory pastry without or any kind of pastry without added fat or oil is difficult. I’ve been working on some different solutions, I have not solved that issue so I’m not going into business anytime soon on that one. But what you can do is you can get rid of the idea of using pastry and use something else. So something like a filo dough, which is basically just flour and water and you wrap it around whatever you want to do several times to create layers that way and then cook it, the only problem with filo is you have to give it a little bit of coating of something, preferably not water, that’s going to create a separation of those layers, otherwise those stick together or just become really dry. So there are some challenges to making savory pastry or just pastry in general without fats or oils.

Geoff Allix 

Okay, yeah, I mean that mentioning filp, that’s that was our Christmas centerpiece if you like, there’s a thing called a ‘Wellington’ which is probably the UK based dish again, but yeah, so it’s basically wrapped in some form of pastry, but we used filo pastry with olive oil in between the layers and wrapping around it and that worked very well, but there’s not no oil, but it was doing it with permitted oils.

Jack McNulty 

It’s same way I would make something like baklava or something of this nature where you create a little bit of layers of filo pastry that have been coated a little bit, usually with a kind of fat of some sort.

Geoff Allix 

Okay. Thank you very much for those, I think we’ve probably used up quite a lot of time on the categories we’ve already done. So we’ll, put the remaining questions into the pot for the next, the next round of Ask Jack and so just to wrap up, personally, thank you very much for answering those questions and to all the listeners, please do subscribe to the podcast on your favorite platform and if you could leave us reviews and ratings and if you have any questions just to remind you to email them to [email protected] for either for Ask Jack episodes or any other podcast related questions or ideas. And remember the Ask Jack is part of the growing podcast family that we have OMS, and is also the Living Well with MS Podcasts, and also the shorter Coffee Break series coming out regularly. So thanks very much for joining us, Jack.

Jack McNulty 

Thanks, Geoff, I really appreciated it. There were some interesting questions. I hope my answers didn’t go on too long there. I was just really struck by the thought and quality of questions submitted by the audience out there and I’m really looking forward to the next show, which I believe is scheduled for May. So please do get your questions in [email protected] as soon as possible.

Geoff Allix 

Thanks very much and look forward to the next one. Thanks for listening to this episode of Ask Jack the special five part series where we dive into questions from our OMS community about all things food, please check out this episode shownotes at overcomingms.org/podcast you’ll find all sorts of useful links and bonus information there. If you’d like to submit a question for a future episode of Ask Jack, please email us at [email protected] You can also subscribe to the show on your favorite podcast platform so you never miss an episode. Ask Jack is kindly supported by a grant from The Happy Charitable Trust. If you’d like to support the Overcoming MS charity and help keep our podcast advertising free you can donate online at overcomingms.org/donate Thank you for your support. Ask Jack is produced by Overcoming MS, the world’s leading Multiple Sclerosis healthy lifestyle charity. We are here to help inform, support and empower everyone affected by MS. To find out more and subscribe to our E-newsletter, please visit our website at overcomingms.org. Thanks again for tuning in and see you next time.

The goal of any cookware is to conduct heat evenly and efficiently while remaining chemically non-reactive. No single pan meets these goals completely. Here’s a brief breakdown on the plusses and minuses of different cookware options:  

Ceramics (Earthenware, Stoneware and Glass): chemically stable and non-reactive. No impact on taste/flavors. Not good at higher temperatures. Always avoid any ceramic with lead glazing.  

Enamelware: thin layer of powdered glass infused on steel or iron creates a non-reactive surface with some degree of non-sticking. Holds heat well over a long time. Not good in conditions of rapid heating or cooling. Susceptible to chipping. Particularly suited for slow cooking using lower temperatures either on the stovetop or in an oven.  

Aluminum: lower cost and lightweight. Excellent heat conductivity providing fast and even heating. Anodized aluminum means they have been treated with a thin protective layer that is non-sticking. Aluminum cookware without treatments reacts to acids and alkaline foods, altering appearance and flavor.  

Copper: best material in terms of conductivity. Expensive option. Most copper pans are lined with stainless steel or tin. They are not good when heated or cooled rapidly. Susceptible to rapid degradation when used in higher temperature cooking (230°C or 450°F).  

Iron and Carbon Steel: good conductor of heat but can be uneven. Can also react with and discolor food. Absorbs and holds heat extremely well over longer periods. Once preheated, cooking temperatures can be reduced. Non-stick surface can be created when ‘seasoning’ the cookware. Heat unsaturated oil for several hours in a moderate oven, then cool and wipe clean 1-2 times per year. Avoid abrasives and dishwashers to keep surface seasoned. Use of oil in pan during seasoning process has no negative effect on food – it is Overcoming MS safe.  

Stainless Steel: iron and carbon mixture. Expensive option, but also long-lasting when cared for. Decent heat conduction and non-reactive to food. Closest to meeting ultimate objective of a good pan. Always preheat pan over moderate to low temperatures before adding food or liquids. Avoid dishwashers to prolong life.  

Non-Stick Pans: non-stick surfaces are created from thin layer of a chemical compound (Teflon or other modern versions). Short shelf life of less than 3 years. Not appropriate at high temperatures, which could cause toxins or warping of pans. Easily scratched. Avoid dishwashers, abrasive cleaners and abrasive utensils. Can be used for effective non-stick cooking at low temperatures. Light coating of oil in pre-heated pan enhances non-stick surface.  

Green Pans: a type of non-stick pan. Thin layer of ceramic applied to surface rather than a chemical compound. Safer non-stick option than most non-stick pans, but still perform poorly at higher temperatures. Susceptible to cracking and chipping. Short shelf life.  

Cast Iron and Carbon Steel: make sure your pan is well-seasoned at all times. Preheat the pan before adding your food. Avoid using any kind of cooking utensil that will scratch the surface. It is ok to allow food to stick briefly to the pan; just release the food with a small amount of liquid.  

Ceramics: preheat the pan or pot slowly over low heat. Avoid using temperatures above medium and make sure to cool the pan or pot slowly at room temperature. Preheat before oven use.  

Non-Stick pans (including new generation varieties): heat the pot or pan slowly over low heat. Never exceed medium temperatures and avoid using cooking utensils that will scratch the surface. Cool the pan slowly to preserve the non-stick surface. Avoid dishwashers.  

Aluminum and Stainless Steel: preheat before adding food. Allow the food to stick to the bottom of the pan or pot and release it with 1-2 tablespoons of water or other liquid. For best results, use medium temperatures and avoid high temperature cooking. Always cool to room temperature before cleaning. Avoid dishwashers.

Organic foods are the healthiest option when compared to traditionally produced fruits and vegetables. They will have lower amounts of pesticides or other harmful elements in the soil. Jack’s suggestion is to choose organic whenever there is an option, but never allow pesticide-stress to prevent eating a wide variety of fruits and vegetables regardless of how they are grown.

The use of oils in cooking is a personal choice. Most recipes can be made entirely oil-free. Oils are mostly used in cooking to create flavor, texture and preserve moisture in the food. In other words, using oils usually amounts to personal satisfaction. Vegetables are normally 60-80% water. As the water evaporates from the surface of the vegetable it will begin to rapidly dry out. Coating the vegetable first in oil slows the loss of liquid and helps exterior sugars to caramelize – creating both flavor and texture.  

Water alone boils at a standard temperature. Adding elements to the water, such as salt, can alter the boiling point but only by a small amount. Adding pressure to water (pressure cooker) can also alter the boiling point (maximum temperatures of a pressure cooker are 120°C (250°F). Adding oils to water slightly reduces the boiling point but the change is marginal. As long as water exists, oils cannot exceed the effective boiling point.  

Crispy textures on vegetables are created by caramelizing natural sugars/starches on the surface. Caramelization begins when sugars/starches reach a temperature of 120°C (250°F). This is also the point when all oils begin breaking down, although harmful elements are not produced until temperatures rise substantially more to 190°C (375°F) and held at this point for 10-20 minutes. Coating vegetables with a light amount of oil is considered Overcoming MS-safe because the surface moisture evaporating from the vegetables will prevent the oils from rising above 120°C (250°F). 

The oil coating will also speed the cooking, caramelization process and prevent too much moisture loss from the vegetable. Crispy textures can be accomplished without oil, although the vegetable will taste dry, a factor that can be overcome by coating the vegetable with a dip or vinaigrette after cooking. Adding a starch to the vegetable surface prior to cooking (corn starch, rice starch, tapioca starch) can help create a crispier surface without adding oils.  

Air-fryers are essentially miniature convection ovens. They rapidly circulate hot air in a small and enclosed area to promote rapid and even heat conduction. Air-fryers rely on temperature cooking of 180°–190°C (350°–375°F). The enclosed space and rapid air movement means surface temperatures of food will rise faster than in a larger convection oven – 165° vs 120°C (330° vs 250°F). Most manufacturers recommend using small amounts of oil to coat the food in order to enhance the crispy textures and prevent too much moisture loss.  

Certain food preparations work best when a thin layer of oil is applied to the surface of a pre-heated pan then wiped clean. Cooking thin pancakes (like crepes) is an example. When a pan is heated, metals expand and open microscopic pores (also true in non-stick pans). These pores are where food will go first and the reason something sticks to a pan. Certain pans minimize this effect with their coatings. Applying a thin layer of oil to the pan and wiping it to remove the excess fills the pores and removes the problem. This is effective when cooking thin batters. It is not necessary before each pancake or crepe, as the first one will aid in closing the pores. High heat will cause the pores to expand further and create the sticking problem faster than cooking at lower temperatures. The oils used in the coating have a minimal effect on the food’s surface and are not carried over into the food. Careful application and wiping the pan ensures this method is completely Overcoming MS compliant.