S2E9 Gut health: your microbiome and you with Kim Venter

Geoff Allix  00:00 

Hi everyone, Geoff Allix here, your host of the Living Well with MS podcast. To all our listeners. I hope you and your families are staying safe and healthy during this COVID 19 crisis. While social distancing and other restrictions may seem like a drag, in the long run, it will prove critical to stemming the tide of this epidemic and returning to a sense of normality. I have faith we will come out of this stronger, smarter and a bit more enlightened as a result. In the meantime, we at Overcoming MS and the whole team behind this podcast are here for you to keep you informed and help you keep on track with your personal journey to a healthier you. Now on with the show. In this episode, we’re going to be talking about gut health your microbiome and you and joining me for this episode is Kim Venter. Kim Venter is a British South African currently living in London, she was diagnosed with MS in October 2010. Kim is a trained teacher, professional psychological counselor, and Nutritional Consultant and has thoroughly enjoyed working with people and helping them through various challenges in their lives. Kim is particularly interested in health psychology, which is exploring the impact of what is going on in the body on the mind. She feels this training has increased her awareness of the psychological impact of MS, and how the food we eat impacts the health of our minds. Kim’s website MSdietfor life.com has a huge amount of resources, as well as a course covering diet, exercise and mindfulness. So Kim Venter welcome to the OMS Living Well with Multiple Sclerosis podcast and in this episode, we’ll be talking about gut health, your microbiome and you. So to start off with, I’d like to ask you, what is the microbiome? And why is it so important? 

 
 

Kim Venter  01:47 

Hi, Geoff, it’s really nice to be on the OMS podcast I’m really happy to be here. So the microbiome, and why they’re so important, this is such a huge topic, gut health. And it is one that is so important for us to be be aware of because it just affects almost every part of our lives. So the microbiome is essentially the sum total of all the microbiomes, all the bacteria living inside our gut and there are like trillions of them, there are 10’s of trillions of them so there are just so many. And researchers are just beginning to uncover the fact that, that these organisms living inside of us are just so pivotal to our physical and our mental health and they decide a lot about the way that we live. So yeah, I mean, they, they’re basically in control of how we feel physically, and how we feel mentally. They’re in control of our sleep, and our ability to focus and think clearly, and our energy levels, and then of course, our propensity for developing illness. 

 
 

Geoff Allix  03:03 

So does the what we eat actually affects our immune system? 

 
 

Kim Venter  03:09 

Absolutely, yeah. So I know, we’re gonna get to this in a later question. But gut health and or the gut and the immune system are very closely related. And they basically live in the same area. So a huge part of our immune system is actually located in our gut. So yeah, that’s what I wanted to say first is that, if we love and nurture our gut bacteria, and we feed them what they want to eat, they will keep us functioning at our best. And they’ll keep all our systems functioning at their best, so the immune system will function better and, and our brain will function better, and just will have better overall health. So yeah, it’s a huge topic and I just wanted to start off by sharing my own gut story, if that’s okay. 

 
 

Geoff Allix  04:12 

Yeah, absolutely.  

 
 

Kim Venter  04:15 

I’ve been on a bit of a journey with my gut, and I still am on this journey. I have to be extremely vigilant about what I eat, and actually even when I eat, and if I make one false move will have one lapse of judgment, In sort of what I eat, then my bacteria communicate very loudly, that I’ve done something wrong. So I do feel like I am very much in touch with my gut bacteria and very much aware of them and what they like and what they don’t like. And it has been a journey, It wasn’t always like that. There was a stage where I was completely not in touch with what was going on and sort of eating whatever I wanted, and I did a lot of damage at that time. So yeah, and when my gut is out of balance, I feel, I actually feel, I feel really ill. So I get a lot of bloating and if it’s really bad, I may actually start to feel a few of my old symptoms flaring up again. So a little bit of numbness, a little bit of itchiness, and maybe a bit of a few aches and pains and it’s completely related to something that I’ve probably eaten in the last 24 hours. 

 
 

Geoff Allix  05:47 

So that’s similar to how, I find stress does that, that instantly if I get stressed out, then symptoms come back. But actually you’re finding that as well with what you eat and how is there a sort of delay? So presumably, so you think, oh, yeah, it’s a few hours ago I ate that, or yesterday I ate that? 

 
 

Kim Venter  06:06 

There is a there’s a delay. So it probably takes about, I don’t know, about six/seven hours for the food to actually go all the way through my gut and seems to reach a certain point in my gut and scientists are saying that a lot of the gut bacteria is actually situated in the large intestine, which is obviously the last part of the gut, so I find that when that offending food reaches my large intestine, that is when I start to feel the symptoms and when it starts to react. So yeah, there is a delay, but yeah, it’s only it’s only a few hours, and then the symptoms will last probably, mostly through the night, and maybe into the next day as well. But luckily, I know how to get rid of them quickly. I you know, just by cleansing, having my green smoothie, just really just getting rid of that offending food as quickly as possible, makes a big difference. But I do feel the after effects, for a few days, I just feel like I don’t have as much energy like I’m not as focused. So it definitely has a longer lasting effect on the gut. 

 
 

Geoff Allix  07:33 

And so if people have got symptoms, which are coming and going and then maybe they’re following the OMS diet, but still they’re finding that they do get symptoms come and go, is it worth maybe keeping a food diary or at least mentally thinking, well, is there a connection and maybe it’s something that’s allowed in OMS? Maybe it’s like gluten, or another food source that they’ve got a sensitivity to even though actually on the OMS program, they say okay, that’s okay. Because there is things like there’s alcohol, there gluten, theres things like that, that are not disallowed, or prohibited if you’d like, but a lot of people say oh, yeah, I wouldn’t have that or another one is nightshade, vegetables, tomato, things like that, or legumes some people avoid. Is it a case almost it’s different for different people that you actually thinking Okay, the thing to do is to note down what have I been eating? 

 
 

Kim Venter  08:31 

Absolutely, absolutely. Because we’re all completely different. And we’re all going to have vastly different guests gut bacteria. So it stands to reason that we’ll all be sensitive to different foods, some people can tolerate gluten, absolutely fine it doesn’t affect them at all and other people, it has an awful effect on the body and they find that they actually get MS symptoms when they eat gluten, it’s that bad. So I think you’re right, it’s completely worth it. If you suspect that a food isn’t reacting well with your gut to keep to keep a food diary, see when you eat it, and try and connect the times where you’re not feeling great with these foods that you suspect are causing problems and I think it’s often difficult to tease out the exact food that’s causing it because it could be one ingredient like it could just be onions, for instance. And you could go for years, trying to work out what the food is. But it’s you know, just the onions that you’re putting in your food almost every night and so you do have to sort of really be you know, be aware to sort of tease out what these foods could be because it could just be one single ingredient. But yes, definitely worth it to keep a food diary because your body could be reacting to these foods and yes, nightshades also a problem. It also FODMAP foods as well that’s a whole nother area. 

 
 

Geoff Allix  10:10 

so what so could you just explain that FODMAP foods. So 

 
 

Kim Venter  10:14 

FODMAP foods are foods that are high in certain sugars, natural sugars that cause a reaction in the gut. And these are foods, some of the common offenders are onions, garlic, certain fruits, like mangos, pawpaw, grapes, as well, are quite high in these sugars. It’s quite complicated there’s some very big names for these sugars, which I’m not going to say, on this podcast. But it’s actually really interesting that that these foods can actually cause a problem in the gut. And some of these foods you find with eating, you know, maybe half of the fruit, for example, like an avocado, that’s on the FODMAP list. And they say that you should be fine with half an avocado but if you eat, if you eat a whole avocado and you’re sensitive to the sugar, then that could cause a reaction in your gut. There’s actually a great app for these FODMAP foods, which I can tell you a bit later Geoff, and maybe you can put in the notes, which is fantastic, because it breaks down all the different foods, basically, all foods are in this app, and it tells you whether it’s a high FODMAP food food or low FODMAP food. And so this can really help for people who find that they are sensitive to these foods. 

 
 

Geoff Allix  11:44 

Okay, so we’ve talked about the gut, so I’ve heard about leaky gut. So what what is leaky gut syndrome? And what effect does that have? 

 
 

Kim Venter  11:53 

Okay, so, before going to leaky gut syndrome, I’d actually just like to share a bit of a personal story on how I damaged my gut, which has, which led to leaky gut syndrome, I believe. So when I was a teen, I went on a gap year to the UK I had been living in South Africa up until then, and decided to go and spend a gap year doing some au pairing, and I had been reasonably healthy up until then, and eating very healthily and I landed myself in a lovely job but with a family who wasn’t really that healthy and so I was exposed to all these unhealthy foods all of a sudden, really delicious, but very unhealthy foods. And to make matters worse, every weekend, I used to go into London, doing some touristy things with my friends and we used to have fast food every single weekend and I thought it was wonderful, you know, it’s cheap, delicious, and I didn’t quite realise that I was causing damage and I kind of should have realised after I started putting on weight really, really rapidly and sort of becoming really constipated. But you know, at 18, you’re not kind of fully aware of your own health, and how to fix things and so I just carried on going. And after that year, I came back to South Africa and I really wasn’t well, for a few months, I didn’t feel great and I started to lose the weight, started to feel so much better, right after I started eating healthily again. However, I believe that I had done a lot of damage in that year, and that my gut had started to become leaky. Because I started to react to certain foods that I hadn’t reacted to before. I just didn’t feel good when I ate things like bread and pasta and so I had to be far more aware of what I ate otherwise, there was a lot of bloating, and I just didn’t feel great. And I mean, it’s taken me years to really understand the impact of that, just that one year of very poor eating on my gut and the damage that it did. And I mean, I’d go as far as to say that, that year of bad eating probably gave rise to the events that caused my MS. And so, so yes, let’s chat about leaky gut syndrome, because it’s a word that is well it’s a it’s a phrase that is thrown around a lot these days. And I know a lot of people are beginning to understand it far more, but I think there are still a lot of people who don’t quite get what it’s all about. So, yeah, so, leaky gut happens when there’s inflammation in the gut and this can, this can happen because of a whole lot of reasons. So usually, a healthy gut will only let the smallest nutrients through, these nutrients are taken through the bloodstream into ourselves, for us to use. And these very, very small molecules have actually been digested or processed by the gut bacteria. So they’ve been fully broken down and the body loves them. However, things can go wrong with this process, which leads to autoimmune activity in a lot of cases. And I believe that there is a trigger sequence for MS symptoms and leaky gut. So leaky gut I feel, and from a lot of research I’ve done is caused by an unhealthy lifestyle, obviously, too much saturated fat, too much refined sugar also, too many antibiotics and medications, this can all damage the gut wall, and it can cause it to actually start developing little holes in it and become permeable, so that the food that is in the gut starts to leak through. So instead of being fully digested by the gut microbes, it is let through before the digestive process is actually complete and this is not great, because what happens is that the immune system just goes on high alert, because it recognises these undigested food particles as foreign invaders and I think what makes matters worse, is when people eat food that their bodies are already a bit sensitive to, so for example, if someone has a slight gluten allergy, or gluten sensitivity or a dairy sensitivity, and they eat those foods, and then undigested molecules of gluten and dairy actually seep through into the blood system, the immune system will be immediately alerted to attack those, because it already thinks that they are foreign invaders. And so and then, and then this can set into motion, the whole autoimmune process. 

 
 

Geoff Allix  17:51 

Apparently, there’s a similarity with the molecules in dairy and myelin. And so that actually, your body goes into overdrive, which it kind of should because there’s things that shouldn’t be there and attacks the things that shouldn’t be there but it also attacks bits of you because they’re similar. And that’s what’s causing the issue that is actually you’re attacking yourself, essentially. 

 
 

Kim Venter  18:15 

That’s, that’s the thing. That’s the whole concept of molecular mimicry. So yes, the, the immune system is getting confused between the dairy that it’s attacking, and the myelin that looks the same as the dairy. And so yes, it can definitely cause a bit of confusion in the immune system, but I think we first need to discuss, like how these overactive immune cells actually get into the brain. Because this was something that I wasn’t really sure about, like, yes, okay, they, they attack, they attack these molecules that are floating around in the blood, but then how do they actually get into the brain? So I think it’s a good chance to talk about the blood brain barrier, which should usually be impermeable to these immune cells. So a healthy brain blood brain barrier, will not let these rogue immune cells through. But the blood brain barrier can become compromised, if we are living unhealthy lifestyle. So saturated fat can damage it, refined sugar can damage it, stress can damage it. And so many aspects of our modern life can cause the blood brain barrier to become damaged. And then the doors are just wide open for these rogue immune cells to go through and then attack. So this is the trigger sequence that happens from an inflamed gut, that becomes leaky, leaks through these undigested particles which somehow get through the blood brain barrier and into the brain. And as you say, if there’s a molecular mimicry thing going on, then you know, that’s that’s even worse. 

 
 

Geoff Allix  20:18 

So essentially, it should be your gut, and that has your food and the digestion going on, then you’ve got the blood part, but they should be separated, and only let certain things through and then there’s no blood flowing around your brain, because that should have another barrier, which only allows through the bits that are required for the brain to function. 

 
 

Kim Venter  20:39 

Exactly. So the blood brain barrier should really just let through glucose and the nutrients that the brain cells need. But when it’s compromised, they will live through other things like these immune cells. And this is when the immune cells can attack the myelin sheath. And obviously, it’s not all the time, because the immune system is not always in rogue mode; that’s what I like to call it, you know, when it’s behaving badly, but when the immune system is activated, and it is unregulated, then the cells will go through, they’ll pass through any permeability in the blood brain barrier. 

 
 

Geoff Allix  21:28 

So if we’re in a, so most of the listeners probably have got MS or know someone with MS. So we’ve gone through that bit and it was it did chime with me as well the unhealthy diet when I was younger, I thought I was fine, because I did lots of exercise, but actually ate terrible, terrible food. So that’s in the past and has happened. So what can we do now? I mean, you’ve mentioned saturated fat, you mentioned processed sugar. So hopefully people following OMS certainly, h they’re hopefully on a low saturated fat diet, they’re hopefully eating a lot of whole foods. Is there anything else that can be done to help the gut and keep it healthy? 

 
 

Kim Venter  22:12 

Yes, absolutely. You know, there’s a lot that we can do these days to help our gut bacteria to flourish. And you know, it’s just, it’s just really about gaining that knowledge about also the foods that work for your body. And so I know that we, one of the topics that we wanted to discuss was, how do we keep the gut healthy, with probiotics and prebiotics? So yes, both prebiotics and probiotics are very important to keep the gut functioning, well, and healthy, 

 
 

Geoff Allix  22:48 

So what are probiotics and prebiotics. 

 
 

Kim Venter  22:50 

So yeah, so probiotics are all about increasing the actual bacteria in your gut. So they, they’re actually live bacteria, essentially. So you can get them from little capsules, you can get them from your food, fermented foods, which I’ll go into in a second. But yes, that is, probiotics are the live bacteria that you want to replenish your gut with, or just increase diversity with. And then the prebiotics are what the probiotics like to feed on. And the probiotics get very hungry, the gut bacteria gets hungry, it needs sustenance, it needs food. And, you know, if we, if we feed it something not great, you know, you know, like refined sugar and saturated fat, it’s, it’s not going to be able to do what it needs to do. But if we feed it, healthy food, lots of fiber, lots of nutrients, it will be able to flourish and really do its job properly. And actually, I was listening to a podcast the other day, and I heard a lovely analogy of comparing the gap with a garden. And so the more plants you plant, in a garden, the more diverse plants you have, the healthier it will be. And same with the gut, the more strains of bacteria you have in your gut, the healthier it’s going to be. And so the best way to get those strains is to be taking probiotics, so from your food, and to be taking a supplement, which I highly recommend finding a really good supplement that’s got, you know, trillions and trillions of strains.  

 
 

Geoff Allix  24:45 

If you take antibiotics, I’m saying, really from the name, I’m guessing would that wipe the whole lot. If you’re taking antibiotics for something? 

 
 

Kim Venter  24:57 

That’s what seems happens. Definitely  

 
 

Geoff Allix  25:00 

So what would you give, as obviously, people need to take antibiotics if they need to, they need to. And they can be life saving. So if you’ve taken a course of antibiotics to get over the infection, would you then can you sort of fix the situation with probiotics and prebiotics? 

 
 

Kim Venter  25:17 

You can, you can definitely, definitely do that. I think a lot of doctors actually recommending that you take probiotics within your course of antibiotics these days. So they recommend that you take them a couple of hours after you’ve had your antibiotics, so that you’ll get is not left absolutely defenseless. Because as we’ve talked about, we need our gut bacteria to help digest our food. If we don’t have them, our food is not going to be fully digested and we’re not going to get the nutrients that we need from our food. So it’s very important that we replace that last bacteria and even if then you’ve got to kill it again, with your next dose of antibiotics. Then you take another probiotic a few hours after that, when that when the antibiotics have all gone through. So there are definitely ways to keep your gut functioning at a fairly healthy level whilst taking antibiotics. And then once your course is finished, obviously, you know, keep going with those probiotics keeping really disciplined about your food, not eating any saturated fat, any refined sugar. 

 
 

Kim Venter  25:27 

And so, I’ve got tablets which say their probiotic and prebiotic in the tablet, but is there sort of natural things we can do? You mentioned fermented foods, I think was one thing. So is there ways where we can eat a better diet, which will help both the probiotic and prebiotic? 

 
 

Kim Venter  26:59 

Definitely, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. It has. I mean, it has everything to do with diet. So yes, fermented foods are extremely important, because they contain a huge amount of probiotics. And, and so having a having a small portion of sauerkraut, for instance, with your evening meal, that will give you probably your daily dose of probiotics. So sauerkraut is very, very rich in probiotics. And then there’s also kefir and I recently discovered coconut kefir; dairy free option, which is amazing as well, very, very rich in probiotics, and basically just fermented coconut milk. And I definitely feel the difference when I’m adding these things, these foods, the sauerkraut and the kefir to my diet, I feel more alert, I feel more energetic, I feel like my gut is working more efficiently. So yes, fermented foods are very important. However, we also need to make sure that we are eating a very large variety of plant based foods, because it’s this, that’s actually going to increase the health of our gut. So the more plant based foods we eat, the healthier our gut microbes will be, because they’re getting a variety of prebiotics. And I’m sure you’ve heard about, about this recently, this number has been floating around. But the experts are saying that we should be eating at least 30 different types of plants on a weekly basis, which I feel is quite a tall order. When I when I first heard it, I thought, wow, that’s actually that’s a lot. And I went ahead and I made a list of all the plant based foods that I’m currently eating, and actually realised that I am eating almost 30 because you can include foods like rice, I mean, I eat three different types of rice’s, you can include oats, you can include loads of other grains. And so you’ve just got to make sure that you are eating a very diverse range of plant based foods, these foods that the gut bacteria love. 

 
 

Geoff Allix  29:28 

And that’s your prebiotics sort of fix really, if you’re eating so a very wide range of whole foods, then your prebiotics are good from that. And then you said sort of there then you’d you’d have fermented food, which would be good for probiotics, but when you take a tablet as well just as a supplement. 

 
 

Kim Venter  29:50 

I do. I take a capsule almost every day. And I do find it that also really helps to keep things in balance. Because that’s, that’s also really what you wanted to try and do, because there’s also bad bacteria in your gut. And you just wanted to keep the balance of good and bad bacteria, right. You want the good bacteria to be flourishing, because if it’s not, then the bad bacteria will start to flourish, and then you’ll have problems. 

 
 

Geoff Allix  30:21 

And so yeah, so gut health can directly impact your MS. And so you’ve already got MS and the state of your gut, can it, Can it be both sort of short, you mentioned short term, but also longer term effects? Do you think the actually what you not just what you eat, but the the health of your gut microbiome will actually directly affect your MS prognosis? 

 
 

Kim Venter  30:50 

Yes, I mean, in my, my slightly uneducated opinion,  I’m definitely not an expert on this. But this is what I have noticed, with my MS and just chatting to loads of other people that have gut problems. This definitely seems to be the case that if you have an underlying gut problem, this could definitely lead, first of all lead to the formation of MS and it can perpetuate your MS and make progress a lot quicker. So sorting out the gut is probably your number one priority when you are diagnosed with MS and you wanted to improve your symptoms. If you are not sorting out your gut, you’re not looking at what you’re eating, the chances of your MS progressing I think are a lot higher. Because of this whole thing that we’ve discussed that there’s a very intimate relationship between your gut and your immune system. And so if your gut is out of balance, this is going to put your immune system out of balance. And so yeah, and then there’s, there’s the whole leaky gut syndrome thing as well, that you know, if these undigested food particles are going through our gut into our bloodstream, there’s definitely going to be more immune activity, possibly autoimmune activity. So, you know, all these things at the moment are, they’re really just theories. And I know there’s a lot of research going on around this at the moment and scientists are discovering new things all the time. But I think that we still got a lot to discover in this field as to actually the exact pathways, the exact mechanisms for how these things work. And you know exactly how MS is caused through gut problems. 

 
 

Geoff Allix  33:01 

So is there sort, for things people to do going forwards, then it’d be a good idea to take a probiotic tablet, eat a whole food diet, which I hope everyone does anyway. And maybe supplement that with fermented foods like sauerkraut, just on that, is sauerkraut just bought in a jar? Would that work? Or is it homemade sauerkraut only? 

 
 

Kim Venter  33:30 

So you can buy sauerkraut, you can’t you need to buy the unpasteurised sauerkraut that hasn’t been heated, because if it’s heated, then all the probiotics will be destroyed. So I know you can buy raw, you can buy raw sauerkraut, however, it is so cheap and so easy to make your own sauerkraut, and I’ve been doing it for years. And it’s a bit of a labor of love, that’s all I’ll say. It takes a little bit of elbow grease to sort of really decide the cabbage and, you know, make it wilt and then stuff and into a jar, so it does take a bit of time and a bit of energy. But it’s fully worth it and it’s so cheap, so much cheaper than buying a jar of of sauerkraut. You know, the cabbage will cost you about a pound. Whereas a jar of sauerkraut could cost you, you know, 10 pounds. So I highly recommend making your own sauerkraut and there are loads of recipes on the internet. But what I like to do is combine red cabbage and white cabbage, it creates a lovely sort of pinky souerkraut. And then obviously then you’re also getting the additional antioxidants from the red cabbage, which are very important. 

 
 

Geoff Allix  34:48 

And then you just have that as a little side with what you’re eating. 

 
 

Kim Venter  34:51 

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And it’s really delicious. You’ve got to you do have to add salt to it when you’re making it because otherwise,  the liquid doesn’t come out properly. So it’s that lovely sort of salty fermented taste that you have alongside a meal that really adds a lot of flavor to the meal. So I really enjoy that. But you do have to start slow, you can’t have this massive portion. Otherwise, you won’t feel that great, it’ll be a bit too much for your body. So just having like a couple of tablespoons a day, just to start with and building up to a larger portion is a good idea. 

 
 

Geoff Allix  35:35 

And then other than that, just keeping either a diary or a mental idea of whether your symptoms are affected by meals that you’ve had. And if there’s a consistency of that, and then maybe trying excluding certain food groups and seeing if that has an effect. That would be another idea to see if you’ve got a particular sensitivity. 

 
 

Kim Venter  35:54 

Definitely, yeah, so I mean, most people, most people suspect that there’s a certain food, causing their problems. And so then it is a good idea to cut out that food for a couple of weeks, see if things improve. And if it’s not that food, if you’re still not feeling great, cut out another food and sort of keep trying. And often it takes a while to figure out what these offending foods really are. But generally, I find that they are foods like gluten, obviously, dairy, which is definitely not included in the OMS diet. And foods like can be foods like onions, and garlic, even those high FODMAP foods, and then could also just be really random foods like tomatoes, foods that you think are really healthy for you, but your body could be reacting to those foods. Because as we said in the beginning, we all completely different. So yes, everyone needs to go on their own journey to figure out which foods are causing problems, and which foods are actually helping them and healing them. And actually just wanted to just add to that list of sort of what we can do to keep our gut healthy, green food foods I find probably the most healing foods you can eat for your gut, they’re full of fiber, which the gut bacteria absolutely love. And they’re also super anti inflammatory, and they leave an alkaline residue on the blood, which is great for healing. And we want to be including as many of these alkaline forming foods in our diet as possible. Because in an alkaline environment, disease can’t thrive. As you know, as opposed to the acidic forming foods, like the dairy and the meat and the gluten and the refined foods, all of those, those are very acid forming. So we need to be focusing on foods that are alkaline, very anti inflammatory, and then we’ll be well on our way to healing our guts and helping them thrive and do what they’re meant to do for us. 

 
 

Geoff Allix  38:13 

Acid forming is not the same as acid in my understanding, is it so as you think that most fruits would be at least slightly acid but actually, that’s not necessarily the same as acid forming. Is that right? 

 
 

Kim Venter  38:27 

That is right, actually, because funnily enough, citrus fruits are actually I mean, they’re very acidic, but when we eat them, they become alkaline in our bodies, they are, they are actually alkaline forming. So yeah, that’s completely right. So just because the food is acidic, like an orange, it doesn’t mean it’s going to be acidic in our bodies. 

 
 

Geoff Allix  38:52 

So we’ve heard a lot about intermittent fasting at the moment, how would that affect your gut health? 

 
 

Kim Venter  38:58 

Yeah, I’m really glad that you actually bought that up Geoff because I feel like intermittent fasting is hugely beneficial for our gut health. And because it allows the gut bacteria to have a rest in between meals and they actually need an extended rest to be able to clean the gap properly. And so what they do is when they’re not digesting food, when all the food is through, then they can actually start their cleaning jobs. You know, they’ve got two jobs these poor gut bacteria. They’ve got to digest and then they’ve also got to clean so you can just imagine the residue that gets caked onto our get from all the food that we eat. It’s not great and it’s very important that that residue gets cleaned up every day. And if we are if we are eating all the time you know if we’r grazing throughout the day, and then we eating well into the night, we’re not giving our gut bacteria sufficient time to do their cleaning. And it’s actually also really important that we, we don’t eat too close to when we go to bed because otherwise, it’s going to interfere with our sleep, because our bacteria, instead of resting, are going to have to be digesting food while we sleep. And I always say that, you know, digestion takes a huge amount of energy and there’s so many things that need to be done in the body, you know, a lot of healing and reconstruction while we sleep. So if they are still focusing on digesting the food that we ate at 10pm, previous night, then they’re not going to be able to do the healing and the reconstruction and all that. So it is very important to give your body a really nice long break from eating. And so for me, this has actually been one of the most important tools that I’ve used for keeping myself well. Because I find that if I stop eating at, say, 4 or 5pm, the previous day, and then I eat again, at about sort of seven, eight, the next morning, that’s about a sort of 15 to 16 hour window of not eating, I find that I sleep a lot better, I find that I wake up feeling a lot more energised, my gut feels really, really healthy, I have, you know, I feel like my tummy is a lot flatter and so I just I feel so much better overall, if I do that. And so yes, I feel like for gut health, it’s very important to restrict your eating, and, and not to be grazing throughout the day, you know, you have your you have your breakfast, then you have a break, have your lunch, have a break, have your dinner, and then stop eating. And I would say the earlier you stop eating, the better. So if I, for instance, if I stop eating at three o’clock, which I do sometimes, it takes a bit of discipline, I’ll feel noticeably better the next morning than if I stopped eating at five o’clock. 

 
 

Geoff Allix  42:18 

And then would you throw in the occasional day so that people do 5:2 dieting, and they have like a couple of days with very low calorie intake. 

 
 

Kim Venter  42:35 

I don’t do that as part of a regular routine. I have done that in the past and I’m not opposed to doing it in the futrure If i feel like I need that. But right now, I feel like what I’m doing is enough. 

 
 

Geoff Allix  42:54 

So almost like the way you were kind of told we should eat that you have a big breakfast, good sized lunch, and then you almost like going down, rather than modern day really which is like either skip breakfast or a snack and then you have just a sandwich for lunch and you have a big meal at nine in the evening. Going back to having a bigger breakfast,  and then it gets smaller as it goes on and then you eat your evening meal quite early. 

 
 

Kim Venter  43:21 

Absolutely. Because it’s also been found that your digestive system is far more efficient earlier on in the day. So if you eat most of your food early on in the day, as opposed to later on, it will be digested a lot more efficiently and you’ll be getting more nutrients floating around your body. So yes, absolutely.  

 
 

Geoff Allix  43:45 

That really chimes with what Valter Longo said about, he said avoid 16:8 if you skip breakfast, because that’s causes potentially gallstones, he said most people do 16:8 fasting where they eat for eight hours and fast 16, they do it by skipping breakfast and that’s not a good idea. But you’re saying so you can still do that, bkut actually when we’re just making sure that the last meal is early in the evening. 

 
 

Kim Venter  44:12 

Exactly. Make sure the last meal you eat is before 6pm that’s what I would say, make 6pm your cut off time because then that means that your food will be fully digested by the time you go to sleep, which will mean you will sleep a lot better, which means you will wake up a lot more refreshed and obviously that has a big knock on effect on everything in your life. So yes, absolutely. You know, eating a nice big breakfast and a really nice big lunch and then maybe a smaller snack for dinner. So that’s that’s certainly what I really try and do. And I actually most days I end up eating only two big meals actually I have a really big meal for breakfast; I have a huge smoothie and I have nuts and then I have a few hours later, I’ll have my vegetables and my salmon or you know, my big meal for the day. And then if I’m a little bit hungry, if a couple of hours after that, I’ll have a banana or a couple of rice cakes or you know, just a small snack, just to tide me over. But I’m always very strict about cutting my eating between 4 or 5pm. Because I don’t, then I pay the price a little bit later, because my digestive system is just not as efficient and can’t deal with food after a certain time. You know, but that is that is me, I know that I do have a very fussy gut. But I do suspect that it would make a big difference to a lot of people if they did that. 

 
 

Geoff Allix  45:43 

So Kim, thank you very much for that. I think we’ve learned an awful lot about gut health, and we’ve got some good pointers to keeping our microbiome healthy going forwards. 

 
 

Kim Venter  45:52 

Thank you so much for having me on the show today, it’s been really great to be here. 

 
 

Geoff Allix  45:57 

Thank you. With that, I would like to thank you all for listening to this episode of Living Well with MS. Remember, there is a wealth of information at overcomingms.org including show notes and an archive of all Living Well with MS episodes. Once again, that’s overcomingms.org. There you could also find OMS friendly recipes and exercise tips, connect with other OMSers in your local area through our OMS circles program, and learn about the latest research going on in the MS world generally and related to OMS specifically. I encourage you to register on the site, and stay informed about the latest news and updates. I also encourage you to subscribe to this podcast, so you never miss an episode. And please feel free to share it with others who might find it of value. Let us know what you think about the podcast by leaving a review and if you have ideas for future episodes, we’d love to hear from you so please contact us via our website overcomingms.org. Thanks again for listening, and for joining me on this journey to Overcoming MS and Living Well with Multiple Sclerosis. I’m Geoff Allix and I’ll see you next time.