S3E3 The view from Shift.ms with Mark Webb

Geoff Allix  00:01

Welcome to Living Well with MS, the podcast from Overcoming MS for people with Multiple Sclerosis interested in making healthy lifestyle choices. I’m your host Geoff Allix. Thank you for joining us for this new episode, I hope it makes you feel more informed and inspired about living a full life with MS. Don’t forget to check out our show notes for more information and useful links. You can find these on our website at overcomingms.org/podcast If you enjoy the show, please spread the word about us on your social media channels, that is the kind of viral effect we can all smile about. Finally, don’t forget to subscribe to the show on your favorite podcast platform so you never miss an episode. Now without further ado, on with the show. Joining us today is Mark Webb, Mark is head of communications at Shift.ms as well as being a player of wheelchair rugby among many fundraising feats. You can find out more about Mark at Onemanandhiscatheters.com. So welcome, Mark. Welcome to the show but can you tell us our audience a little bit about yourself?

 

Mark Webb  01:10

Yes, of course. So I’m Mark, I have a progressive MS, Secondary progressive. So I’ve had many years with a relapsing remitting MS. I’m slightly over 50, happily married for 21 years with two teenage children.

 

Geoff Allix  01:31

I’m slightly under 50 but that won’t last very long. I’m about a mile away.

 

Mark Webb  01:38

I mean, I’m embracing my age. It’s fine.

 

Geoff Allix  01:41

This is a very bizarre thing and not not the topic of the podcast. But so my father had MS and he died at 54. So there’s a bit of a milestone that I’m kind of thinking I definitely want to get past that. So you’re affiliated with Shift.ms so could you tell us a bit about Shift.ms. Can you tell us a bit about Shift.ms and what they do?

 

Mark Webb  02:15

Yes. So Shift.ms is it’s officially a charity and it is a charity but it’s a very quirky and edgy one. It was founded by a guy called George Pepper and his best friend Freddie. George was diagnosed with MS in the typical age range, I think, maybe around 30, but found that all the traditional channels were leading him down to talk to older people, or people with more advanced MS. He really didn’t find a community that he could share his experiences, ask questions, answer questions, explore what was going on in his life and his head, so to speak. So he founded Shift.MS 11 years ago and it started out really as a social network, well, it is a social network for MSers so founded by MSers for MSers. And it’s the place where you can go to chat, to ask questions, to have those discussions about; “I’ve got a tingly feeling in my left little toe anybody else experienced that?” And inevitably, given there’s nearly 40,000 members, somebody else will chime in and say, “Oh yes, I’ve got that, but it’s actually on right left toe” or whatever. And it’s just a brilliant, supportive, positive community. And that’s what it’s remained and that’s what it’s grown. It’s UK based, George lives in Leeds, we’ve got offices in Leeds and London, but actually it’s a worldwide movement now, given it’s English language, naturally, we have loads of users in the US, Canada for example, but with the magic of Google Translate, etcetera, it’s truly global. Alongside the social network, which is kind of the core, the couple of other things Shift.ms does really well is produce some amazing films, which really try to help explain and make sense of what’s the unexplainable really or what’s the word inexplicable? When I say bad words I can just blame my MS but my cog fog/my brain mess.

 

Geoff Allix  04:39

My wife does point out that I used to be like this before.

 

Mark Webb  04:43

Yes, well, yeah, I know. But now we get the excuses and it’s wonderful. One of one of the few gifts of MS is that you can blame so much on your bloomin’ disease. But yes, Shift.ms produces absolutely wonderful films and I would probably point to the first and the last ones to look up on YouTube. The first they made and my favorite still is “Gallop,” which is about a chap going through the process of diagnosis and not understanding it, getting a bit scared, getting a bit angry, getting confused, etc. wrapped up in a bit of a love story and that is a wonderful, very moving video. The very latest one is called “Sidecar;” very edgy, it’s about motorbike racing and one of the people in there is going through the process of moving from having “normal MS,” let’s call it to going progressive and you can see the emotions and the humour in it and the edginess of it is just fantastic. So “Gallop” and “Sidecar” are two of many films, but they’re both just brilliant.

 

Geoff Allix  06:06

“Sidecar” is my favorite one. And you’ve got like, I was gonna say proper actors, but recognise they’re quite high profile actors in there.

 

Mark Webb  06:17

Yes, so the the the lady in “Gallop;” so the co star in “Gallop,” she went on to be I hope I’m right in saying, she was in Hollyoaks. So we got to her just before she she broke into higher level acting, but the production quality is just immense and we’re always winning awards, left, right and center. And then the third thing that Shift.ms does is a lovely series of encounters with experts in their fields; neurologists, MS nurses, counsellors in nutrition, counsellors in exercise, in sexual issues, etc, etc. It’s just rebranding, but it’s been called MS Reporters and it uses MSers from our community, who are trained up to interview and they get to talk to the experts across the world and we post those on YouTube. And we, as MSers, get what half an hour, an hour with a neurologist every so often, maybe the same with an MS nurse, depending on where we are and if we’re lucky, we might have counselling, we might have physio, whatever. But what you’ve got on YouTube is immensely rich library of us MSers talking to the gurus out there and it’s been particularly helpful during lockdown, and during the pandemic, because, of course, on the day the pandemic broke, we just didn’t know exactly what the impact would be on MSers in terms of risk, profile, and everything else so to hear from the experts, giving us some idea of what they thought and then through the process telling us more and more as they knew and as they understood stuff, and there’s data came through and most of it was very reassuring. But you could find that information that really would be very difficult to get through your GP because, you know, a GP is not likely to understand the intricacies of Multiple Sclerosis.

 

Geoff Allix  08:35

And what’s your personal mission and motivation to help the MS community?

 

Mark Webb  08:43

That’s a very big question for me. You know, they talk about the five stages of grief, don’t they? And I I’ve been there, I was diagnosed in 2007. I had, looking back, I had MS since 1992 but it took me a while, I can remember the time I said, when I asked Costa Coffee girl to carry my coffee and I said, I’m partially disabled, so could you carry my coffee? I really couldn’t bear saying the word disabled about myself. That’s a good few years ago now and now I’m proud to be disabled. I’ve got a voice. I worked in comms all my life and graduated in social media, so I’ve got a powerful voice. And I use it to speak up for the MS community, to speak up for the disabled community and because I’m on lots of speaker platforms, I work very hard at diversity and inclusion as a topic because ethnicity, gender, sexuality, they’re all very deserving parts of the diversity conversation. Actually, the biggest minority in D&I; Diversity and Inclusion, is the disabled community and we’re often the last one represented. So I’ve kind of added that to my portfolio of shoutiness. And in terms of shoutiness, I’m not, I’m not one to chain myself to gates outside Number 10. I prefer the happy chappy in a wheelchair. So I can get angry, but generally, it’s humour and engagement is my way of bringing the community to light.

 

Geoff Allix  10:50

And in terms of your MS, how has that impacted your life?

 

Mark Webb  10:58

My MS is pretty advanced now. So I can still walk a few yards on a good day with a rollator. I have a wheelchair that I use to get around the house when I’m, I was gonna say too lazy, but also too tired to walk. I have a funky wheelchair, motorised wheelchair to have more adventures that can get me off road etc. I’ve been catheterising for quite a while, self catheterising for quite a while and just last year, I had a suprapubic catheter inserted, so I’ve now got a direct tube into my tummy and a bag that can empty out and that’s not pleasant, but actually a bit of a relief because I can now hydrate at last, whereas when you have leaky bits, you tend to not drink enough and that can lead to it’s own problems. So it impacts pretty much every aspect of my life. I have a carer, I still work, I tweet furiously from my bed in the mornings, but it’s pretty all encompassing now, but that’s fine.

 

Geoff Allix  12:19

Just on the catheterisation, there was a YouTube, but his latest YouTube video from Aaron Boster, who I’m sure you’re aware. And he said that MS symptoms more than anything else, more than relapses or anything else are caused by urinary tract infections?  And you were saying about drinking enough, because I think one of the most common symptoms is sort of bladder issues and then obviously, then you start to drink less and then you get dehydrated, then you get more UTIs and he was saying literally, and I haven’t spoken to him about this, but literally more than relapses, symptoms are caused by urinary tract infections, which I found extrodinary.

 

Mark Webb  13:09

I have it particularly bad, when I get it bad, I get a very high fever and one of my key symptom or main symptoms is spasms, luckily, confined to night time, but when I have a fever, and my left hand side, which is the worst, both sides are bad now but my left side is far worse. It goes from spasms into absolute painful paralysis, so by the time I get to hospital, I’m blue lighted to hospital, I can hear all the medics going sepsis, sepsis, so they’re all they’re all looking out for sepsis markers and I’m glad sepsis is now a recognised thing, because that’s a huge killer and it’s a killer of people with MS. And by the time I’m in a hospital within a few minutes I’m on morphine because the amount of pain my paralysis is giving me, so I have UTI’s bad and yeah, it’s not pleasant,.

 

Geoff Allix  14:10

And one of the key things to stop them is drinking lots of lots and lots of water. This isn’t on video, but Mark’s now drink water.

 

Mark Webb  14:26

There’s the advantage of self characterising, there’s a little bit of effort involved. I now have a bag so I can I can drink, it’ll pull through into a bag which I empty at some point. So I just yes, I flood my body now with water.

 

Geoff Allix  14:43

Yeah. So exercise is one of the key things, I would encourage people to follow you on Twitter, because it’s interesting and entertaining as well. So there’s a lot of, you get a lot of information but also you’ll get a lot of humor as well of the the antics that you get up to if I can put it that way. And so, from that it’s clear that exercise is very important to you and I know that you were active in wheelchair rugby, that’s not were because of anything to do with your condition, but because of Coronavirus, we can’t play team sports. So could you tell us a bit about wheelchair rugby and your general sporting endeavors?

 

Mark Webb  15:28

Yes, so once upon a time, I was a very active, let’s call it real rugby player, captain of a good school, county player, blah, blah, blah, all the things you’d like to show off about when you’re when you were little, which is now hundreds of years ago. So I was an active rugby player, I’m still an active armchair rugby supporter and fast forward through my career, I was a ski rep for a couple of years, I spent three years of Head of Communications for David Lloyd leisure, which is a health and fitness group. So I was in spinning classes, I was doing a triathlon every year, retrospectively stumbling on my left foot every time I was running round, but I hadn’t been diagnosed. So I was always active. I was then diagnosed in 2007 at a time when really I don’t think it was that understood and certainly not broadcast that you should keep exercising. So my activities drowned out to close to zero, while I processed being diagnosed and I didn’t exercise and that’s a big regret of mine. But nobody told me to, so I’ve got to get over it. I then took up physio and I was doing some basic exercises, exercises at my fantastic local MS center, learning how to look after my body a bit better, but then discovered wheelchair rugby as part of a nagging from my physio at the time, she also worked in a spinal injury ward for the NHS as one of her sort of portfolio of physio jobs, and was used to encouraging people who’d experienced spinal issues to get into wheelchair rugby. It took ages to, I don’t know, six months, nine months of her nagging me and I just wish I’d gone earlier because it’s absolutely fantastic. I am up against, it’s a mixed gender sport, so males and females, I am comfortably the worst player and I’m fine about that, in the sense that often you’re up against somebody who’s had a car accident, so lost, you know, a lower limb problems, or they’ve been in Afghanistan and lost a leg, or they’ve got relatively mild cerebral palsy. So I’m up against beefcakes, who bomb around the court, but the beauty of wheelchair rugby is that it’s very welcoming and because it’s on a point system, you’re allowed a certain amount of ability on the court at any one time, you’ve got the superstars, but you also need the, you know the little tootlers like myself to make up the numbers, but I more than make up the numbers because there are speedy wheelchairs to score the tries, but there are also different shape wheelchairs with sort of metal frontage to them that get in the way of those beefcakes and I’m a getter in the wayer of the fast guys and girls and I absolutely love it. So it’s weird, I wish I didn’t have MS, but I’m 52 and I’m playing a contact sport and I wouldn’t be doing that, If I didn’t have MS.

 

Geoff Allix  19:20

Has it helped you build your strength and confidence playing rugby?

 

Mark Webb  19:26

My confidence has never really been an issue, but in terms of strength, absolutely. So I can feel myself getting a little bit weaker in lockdown. I still exercise out on the patio, I think I’ve done about 25 kilometers up and down, up and down, up and down the patio in lockdown and while we’ve all been talking about binge watching Netflix and what’s next on telly. I do the same, but I do that lying in bed with some weights, just casually lifting weights. And again, I ‘m just closing in on 150 tons; bicep curled. That’s balanced towards my strong right hand side, but I push my bad left hand side as well. And so I can actually see, in the bits of my body that are working, I’ve actually got some growing muscles and that’s really weird when you’ve got a progressive disease, you know, you’re in a sense going downhill, you don’t know how downhill that graph is, it’s not always straightforward, progressively, it’s kind of, mine seems to have slowed down since I was highly active when I had relapsing remitting. But to see a couple of my muscles actually, looking quite good is a wonderful feeling and no skin off my nose when I’m watching The Crown or whatever, and just sitting there lifting weights. So it’s wonderful, but also the team ethic, I’ve broadened my horizons, way beyond Multiple Sclerosis, a long time ago, but to actually have that camaraderie with a bunch of a dozen or so people with very different conditions, and we don’t even talk about those conditions, there’s two or three, I’m not quite sure what’s wrong with them, because it doesn’t matter. We just get on to the cord and bash into each other.

 

Geoff Allix  21:32

I did some sessions with my neuro physio and it was very good actually, they had some, like weekly gym sessions and you can see, everyone starts like eyeing each other up because they don’t say what condition you’ve got. And then after a while you kind of work it out and then they sort of say, “Yeah, you got MS,” I was like “Yeah, I was wondering about you as well.” It’s like, okay, yeah, because just from the symptoms, I can kind of see the thing with MS, obviously, they’re different for everyone. But there are some things you think, it was quite interesting, because actually, one person had very similar symptoms had been in a car crash and she was a keen cyclist and was hit while on her bike and, yeah, and because it had caused sort of brain injury and she had very similar symptoms bizarrely. But yeah, she had other other issues, which  she wants to get back to her bike and had a real fear problem as well, but anyway. I wanted to ask as well so people who might have mobility issues, what advice would you give them about getting more active?

 

Mark Webb  22:44

I think the most simple answer is do, it’s so easy to just let go. I have quite severe chronic fatigue as well and it’s relatively easy to give in and I think there are times when you do need to give in and we do need to accept that today is not your day or this hour is not your hour, but I really believe in pushing yourself. I think we all need different motivations, don’t we? So for me, one, wheelchair rugby has driven me on to push myself even when I’m not in training. So with the team, so that there is that motivation I get, but also if you have a local MS center, or if you can access physio through the NHS or whatever is the equivalent in your country, that is also a motivator for me is being nagged by a physio and understanding that I’ve got, you know lazy can be the right word in the sense that not that you’re not trying but sometimes you’re getting into bad habits and to have a physio just take a look at the way you’re hobbling or walking or transferring from chair to wheelchair, from bed to upright, all those things where you’re developing bad habits. Lazy is an unfair word, but I think it makes sense, if you’ve got somebody who can look at your body and the way you’re using your body or mis-using your body, I think that’s very key. So I think just staying active is absolutely key. Whilst at the same time respecting that you’ve got a bugger of a disease that is going to prevent you from ever representing England on the rugby field ever again.

 

Geoff Allix  24:45

And on inclusivity and accessibility what’s your view on how the diversity of symptoms that people have got and how diversity in the MS community is treated?

 

Mark Webb  25:08

Yeah, that’s interesting, isn’t it? So you know, we call it this snowflake disease, because not one of us has the same exact path or exact collection of portfolio of symptoms as the other or severity of them or whatever. So there’s funny times, so I think when we are diagnosed, I personally, for example, sort of not shut down in any depressed sense, but I just didn’t really want to know. So denial, I think was my key way of treating my MS early on, when I was diagnosed. There’s others who are going to be profoundly knocked sideways and depressed or anxious, or those kinds of words, there’s others going to be wanting answers and determined to sort their life out, etcetera, so there’s that time and that’s one of the reasons I value Shift.ms and the way it can help people, but also my local MS center, meeting with other people. So that’s a funny time for people with MS. I think you then get to the well, let’s call it the middle phase, when you do develop an understanding, hopefully, you develop a network of friends and family, we all know that we lose friends who can’t really cope with the fact we’re not quite what we used to be. But I don’t mind that because you find the special people and then we get to this progressive disease and I think there’s a good few people who feel neglected at that stage, because well, really, because of science. We’re a minority within a minority, I think, is it 15%ish of people have Primary Progressive MS, that’s the MS that instantly just starts going downhill at varied paces, but hasn’t got many drugs to treat to slow progression. And likewise, Secondary Progressive, which is what I’ve got, so I’ve had the Relapsing Remitting MS for years, but at some point two or three years ago, I edged my way into Progressive MS and at that point, you know, you’re going to go into your neurologist and partly, it’s going to be a ‘Hi, how are you? Great, fine, thanks bye’ tick box and, you know, I’ve always had good neurologists, but at the same time, you’re slightly on the scrapheap. There are drugs coming online now, but that would be, I think it’s the challenge, I’m not upset about that, It’s just the way science is and it’s a more complex disease to treat, and so on and I’m afraid in pharmaceutical terms, it’s probably not quite as profitable to push for those kinds of drugs. So I’m really glad, I’m on a trial with a statin drug, which is I think statistically slows down if it works, progress of my my illness by sort of 20 to 30% or something. So things are happening, but we are slightly marginalised when we’re that ill, but that’s the way it is and that’s one of the reasons I need to keep speaking up.

 

Geoff Allix  28:32

And do you think the MS community could be more inclusive? Not the neurologists, but the actual groups of people with with MS, Like the likes of Shift.ms and Overcoming MS and MS society and all these things?

 

Mark Webb  28:50

I think they could, but at the same time, I think it’s challenging to cater for all of us and, of course, we are all catered for, you know, there is in the UK, there’s the MS Society, there’s the MS Trust, there’s Shift.ms, which is global and of course the MS Society is global, Overcoming MS is global, so there is so much out there, but I think sometimes the information and the support is out there, but I think sometimes it does fall back down to us to find our community and that does graduate through time. So, like I said, I had that denial phase when I didn’t really want to talk to anyone with MS and much as though I was never judgmental about disability while I understood that a wheelchair might be my future I just for a while did not want to see people in wheelchairs. I was, could I say repulsed? I probably was for a while because I feared them all of a sudden, nobody imagines that they’re going to be in a wheelchair and now I’m in it I’m absolutely fine with it but just that thought of a wheelchair was a bit scary, well very scary. It’s actually liberating when you give in, so to speak and get in a wheelchair, but there are communities out there and support networks. Could drugs companies do more for us? Could neurologists do more for us? Maybe, yes but it’s a complex disease. So I in a sense, while I do campaign, I’m not campaigned to get myself cured, or vaccinated or whatever, I want an understanding from the disabled community, from the world about disability, about Multiple Sclerosis, but also I have children, and I’m playing the long game, so I will keep pushing, because I know that statistically, my children have a chance of getting MS. Not huge chance, but I’m afraid a good chance, so even if I’m buggered by my MS, I think more about the next generation and grandchildren, if I have them. It’s getting better all the time and that’s why I keep pushing on you asked me about my purpose, I think that’s the important thing I want to win the lottery, I want to be cured, etcetera, etcetera, it ain’t gonna happen, neither of those will particularly because I don’t play the lottery, but there will be better treatments down the line and then we’ll be better understanding down the line and that’s what I want to leave as a legacy. I plan to hang around, but I’m playing the long game for the disabled community, for diversity, for the MS community.

 

Geoff Allix  32:10

So you’re obviously very busy. We talked about with sport and everything, one of the other things you do is public speaking and Ted Talks. So what sort of things do you present on those?

 

Mark Webb  32:24

Yes, so actually, funnily enough, because I twaddle away on, particularly on Twitter, and LinkedIn, and I play a little bit with Instagram as well, I tend to get invited to stuff to speak and I tend to be on diversity panels more often than not. So I’m usually with, you know, LGBT person, somebody from an ethnic, a different ethnic background, to, you know, white UK, so to speak, and gender, you know, I say we’re the largest minority actually, girls are 49% of the population, aren’t they? So actually, specifically, you know, there’s so much progress to be done there. So I’m on there and I’ve talked about myself as the happy chap in a wheelchair and I can usually tell that I have the most powerful impact on people just talking about the disabled community so it’s often about diversity and inclusion. I talk about it’s a bit of a funky word that’s only come out recently, but employee advocacy, as in talking up employers. I was diagnosed during my time working for Dixon’s Carphone, which are the guys in the UK that own Curry’s, PC World, Carphone Warehouse, a bit like Best Buy in the US and Dixon’s owns, companies across Europe,  an Elk Shop in Norway, etc, etc, so a very large organisation, and one that with 38,000 employees, you wouldn’t really expect to have treated an individual with a weird disease so well as they did. So I was diagnosed in my time with Dixon’s and then progressed quite badly in my time with Dixon’s and at every step of the way they were brilliant with me, and it’s three years since I left them and I’m still speaking about them. So I talk about the value of looking after somebody who’s going through issues, it doesn’t have to be MS, It doesn’t have to be disability, it might be illness, it could be a cancer diagnosis, it could be grief from you know, family members or whatever, but looking after somebody at the more difficult phases in their life can have huge payoffs. So Dixon’s looked after me wonderfully, but they don’t own me, owed me diddly squat and yet I’m talking them up still, I’m talking at the Retail Week, Retail Week is something of a Bible for anybody in retail, which is having a tough time at the moment. But I’m on a panel in the next couple of months, talking up Dixon’s, unpaid, whatever, just because they were absolutely brilliant with me and you know, they could have given me what I call the guilty check. You know, there there Mark, off you go, have a couple of quid, thanks very much, you’re a lovely man, bye bye. And they didn’t, they adapted, worked with me to adapt my job that would also work for them. So win win situation, because it wasn’t just go away and yeah, we’ll give you a photocopying job. It was we evolved a job where I had been in active PR and communications in London with journalists, into a social media job, which meant I could work from home, or from my desk, still talk to the same journalists I was communicating with, but still benefit the company. And it was wonderfully imaginative approach to dealing with a very serious illness and you know, in the league table of MSes, I’ve probably got a fairly, not the worst hand, but I’ve got a fairly bad hand and they were just brilliant with me. So diversity, employee advocacy, and then really just disability. I am the guy who can still live a good life, despite what my body’s doing to me.

 

Geoff Allix  36:59

And as a final question, 2020 was obviously a pretty tough year for everyone. So what are you hopeful about in 2021?

 

Mark Webb  37:12

Ah, 2021, well, I’m hopeful of a nice spring and summer. It’s wonderful as we talk, we’ve just got to the point where sundown is after 5pm and I think for a lot of people, this last lockdown has possibly been the toughest because it was during the winter. I’ve actually found it the easiest, because there’s those vaccines around the corne, there is summer around the corner, there’s a better understanding of the illness. So I hope for a return to normal or normalish. I’m very excited about getting back to wheelchair rugby. I’ve been fundraising in lockdown doing a via Athlon, which is just doing a variety of exercises and I’ve raised something like 5,000 pounds for Shift.MS. So really happy about that, but I need to do something else silly and a couple of years ago, I did a Tough Mudder, where I was essentially a sack of potatoes being chucked over and under obstacles, because I am got any strength to do any of the obstacles and Tough Mudder would rather like me to come back. So I may be if the world does open up as we all hope, I may be doing another Tough Mudder for the sake of being silly. But I think and I hope the biggest benefit to the disabled community out of what’s been a really tough time is that people understand the value and the ease of flexible working, is that people can productively and professionally and reliably and trustworthily; is that a word? Trustworthily work from home, so lots of people with MS can carry on working your full time job in the office, etc, etc. but there’s lots of us who can still benefit the professional community but just can’t run the traditional office life or hours. So I’m hoping, I’m not 100% confident but I’m hoping that there’s an understanding that working from home, working flexibly is a way forward that works for companies but also works for the disabled, the chronically ill, the chronically fatigued, to still keep giving back to community you know there’s certain publications in the UK but I’m sure elsewhere in the world, that would would have us positioned as scroungers andthere’s data out there that just shows absolutely, it’s only a tiny minority there are these scrounges and there are an awful lot more who are desperate to do stuff, work or exercise or volunteering, and just haven’t been able to because the world is not set up for them like that. So I’m hoping there’s a little bit more accessibility, flexibility, creativity around the edges of a world that’s really not set up for disabled people.

 

Geoff Allix  40:38

Thank you very much for that and I just like to thank you for joining us and encourage any listeners to check you out on Twitter, and have a read of your blog at Onemanandhiscatheters.com and thank you for joining us Mark Webb.

 

Mark Webb  40:55

Absolutely pleasure. Thank you very much.

 

Geoff Allix  41:02

Thank you for listening to this episode of Living Well with MS. Please check out this episode show notes at overcomingms.org/podcast You’ll find all sorts of useful links and bonus information there. Do you have questions about this episode or ideas about future ones? Email us at [email protected] we’d love to hear from you. You can also subscribe to the show on your favorite podcast platform so you never miss an episode. Living Well with MS is kindly supported by grant from The Happy Charitable Trust. If you’d like to support the Overcoming MS charity and help keep our podcast advertising free, you can donate online at overcomingms.org/donate Thank you for your support. LIving Well with MS is produced by Overcoming MS, the world’s leading Multiple Sclerosis healthy lifestyle charity. We are here to help inform, support and empower everyone affected by MS. To find out more and subscribe to our E-newsletter please visit our website at overcomingms.org Thanks again for tuning in and see you next time.