S4E22 Yoga Moves MS with Mindy Eisenberg

(8:14) “This is a big issue that people are fearful of yoga or they think they can’t do it. It’s in the forefront now, it’s a mission of mine to help people understand that anyone can do it. And yes, yoga does lend itself to adaptation because the idea is that you are not forcing your body into a pose. The pose is supposed to benefit you.”

(16:56) “Yoga is called a practice for a reason. And the practice is every day you get on your mat or you sit in your chair and you have a breath practice and that is going to change on a daily basis. It’s not about getting the A or, nailing the pose… It’s not a pass fail. 99% of yoga or meditation or Tai Chi is actually showing up and doing it for yourself. I feel strongly about that.”

(20:48) “The idea with yoga is it’s actually making friends again. You know, some people say that they’re at peace with their body when they do yoga and the idea with the adaptive yoga is you’re not identified by your MS. You know, that your MS isn’t you, that’s not who you are.”

(31:46) “The other measurement we use in yoga is the breath. And so you always have that barometer, if you will, where if your breath is fast and rapid and shallow. That is a really good indicator of fatigue. If the breath is non-existent meaning holding the breath, that is also an indicator of either fatigue or fear or a need to back off.”

Geoff Allix: Welcome to Living Well with MS, the podcast from Overcoming MS the world’s leading multiple sclerosis, healthy lifestyle charity celebrating its 10th year of serving the Ms community. I’m your host, Geoff Allix. The goal of our organization and this podcast is to inform, support and empower people with MS to lead full and happy lives. 

[00:00:21] We’re excited. You could join us for this new episode. Make sure to check out this episode’s show notes for more information and useful links. You can find these on our website at overcomingms.org/podcast or on whichever podcast platform you use to tune into our program. If you enjoy the show, please spread the word about us on your social media channels or leave a review wherever you tune into our podcast. Have questions or ideas to share? Email us at [email protected] or you can reach out to me directly on Twitter @GeoffAllix. We’d love to hear from you. Finally, don’t forget to subscribe to Living Well with MS on your favorite podcast platform so you never miss an episode. And now let’s meet our guest for this episode.  

[00:01:07] So joining me on this edition of Living Well with MS is Mindy Eisenberg. Mindy is the founder of Yoga Moves MS, is a highly qualified yoga instructor as well as being a qualified Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction teacher. Welcome to the podcast Mindy.  

[00:01:27] Mindy Eisenberg: I’m very happy to be here with you.  

[00:01:29] Geoff Allix: So I wanted to start back to the beginning if you like, why were you inspired to create a specific, yoga organization for people with MS? I know you cover other things as well with Parkinson’s disease and other neuromuscular conditions, but this is an MS based podcast and it is called Yoga Moves MS. So we’ll go for the MS approach. So what, what inspired you to create a yoga practice for people with MS?  

[00:01:57] Mindy Eisenberg: Yes. So when I was growing up as a little girl, I was around five years old, my mother was diagnosed. Primary Progressive MS. And so I lived pretty much my whole childhood life. And then young adult life with someone in our family, very close to me who had MS. And I became a hospital administrator didn’t necessarily have a plan to develop a nonprofit, but I fell in love with yoga. One of my friends introduced it to me and it was prior to me having jaw surgery, which was just perfect because yoga provides you with coping skills for anxiety. In addition to the postural benefits of it, was very, very helpful in becoming more aware of how I held myself, within my physical body. And after I took yoga for about 10 years, just totally immersed myself in it I decided it was time to take a teacher training. So I always say I didn’t have this plan, but someone, something, some bigger energy out there had a plan for me, as soon as I finished my first initial teacher training, my son’s nursery school teacher had MS and asked me to go to their support group, which was in a big, MS center in Michigan. And so I gave like a little sample class and they loved it. Mind you, I didn’t know much about adaptive yoga at that point and what that adaptive yoga is not something that is in a standard, mainstream yoga teacher training. 

[00:03:58] So we did that class. They loved it and asked me if we could do it every Tuesday night. And it became part of my life. And that class started to ripple into other classes. Then for years I was doing fundraisers for the Multiple Sclerosis Foundation, and then they would turn around and give me grants because we don’t charge for our classes. 

[00:04:28] We’re a nonprofit like you are. And so I had to have some way to start paying teachers and rents and all the costs that come along with it. Then eventually we grew into about six different locations in Michigan and the MS Foundation said, “you know, you’re getting kinda, you could start your own nonprofit now.” 

[00:04:56] And people had said, it would be a good thing to do. So it wasn’t me. I didn’t have that driving force thinking I needed my own entity. I really enjoyed being part of the MS community in general and didn’t feel I needed to do something by myself, but I sat next to a person named Diane at the MS Society. Once we were listening to the national director at the time speak and she says, well, what are you doing here? And I told her, and then she says, well, I’m having a yoga fundraiser. And I said, really? Yeah, I’m raising money for MS, I have MS would you like to come and be part of it? 

[00:05:41] And I’m like, of course. And she had the name, Yoga Moves MS for her fundraiser. And we decided to take that on and started running fundraisers every year. And they kept growing from like 80 people up the last one before COVID was about 300 people. And so there were all these different pieces of the puzzle coming together. Finally the light struck me. You must have a Yoga Moves MS nonprofit, and that’s how we came to be. That’s a long winded answer, huh?  

[00:06:19] Geoff Allix: No, no, that’s good. I mean, my personal history is that I did yoga before I certainly, before I knew I had MS. And I got on quite well with yoga. It sort of ticks a lot of boxes. 

[00:06:34] It was the only time I did mindfulness actually, was part of at the end of the yoga session. So there was mindful part to it. But I found that I couldn’t do, I know there’s names for all the moves and I can’t remember this one, but it’s basically lying on your back with your knees up your calves sort of horizontal hands in the air. 

[00:06:54] Mindy Eisenberg: Bridge pose, maybe bridge pose? 

[00:06:56] Geoff Allix: Your back was straight, but you had your knees up in the air, and your calves horizontal. And I couldn’t do that with one of my legs.  

[00:07:02] Mindy Eisenberg: Oh, I think you mean boat pose.  

[00:07:05] Geoff Allix: That could be it. Yeah. And it, but it was something I found really difficult. 

[00:07:08] I didn’t know I had MS, I just found, I couldn’t do that. And so I kind of stopped doing yoga with that class.  

[00:07:16] Mindy Eisenberg: Oh, that’s kinda sad.  

[00:07:17] Geoff Allix: Well, no, but I didn’t know why. I just thought it must be some sort of injury. I probably shouldn’t exacerbate it. Considering my dad had MS I probably should have realized a bit sooner, but anyway, it’s something that never really came up with was one of the things, there’s a few things that came up prior to being diagnosed. 

[00:07:34] And that, would be one of them. Like, you know, it was something, it wasn’t quite working properly, but would you say, I think then there must be because the symptoms are about MS are so many and vary, where it could be balance. It could be sight, it could be you know, one leg, other leg, arms spasticity or, you know, numerous things that we can get the wonderful world of MS. 

[00:07:55] But do you think that yoga does actually lend itself to adaption? If you’ve got people, you know, one person who’s got balance issues in a class and another person who’s got spasticity issues. It, it can lend itself to that.  

[00:08:12] Mindy Eisenberg: Absolutely. But I wanna take a step back. Th is is a big issue that people are fearful of yoga or they think they can’t do it. 

[00:08:24] It’s in the forefront now it’s a mission of mine to help people understand that anyone can do it. And yes, yoga does lend itself to adaptation because the idea is that you are not forcing your body into a pose. The pose is supposed to benefit you. 

[00:08:52] It’s there for you. And if that particular pose for some reason, which is very unusual, cannot be adapted for you, then there’s another pose that may give a similar benefit and the benefits to yoga are many because there’s so many different levels of yoga. So we have the physical body, right. 

[00:09:20] And when you were mentioning balance and spasticity and strength, our sense of where we’re at in space. Being in our body, that’s the gift of yoga. One of the gifts of yoga. And if a pose isn’t accessible, we modify the pose so that you can get the benefit of practicing a posture that helps with balance. 

[00:09:52] There are many different postures that help with balance. I was just teaching this morning and we played with opening and closing eyes during a posture. Now this class was in the chair and then we divide half the classes in the chair and half is on the earth. Just one of our classes, we vary it up, but we played with the idea of let’s do this posture first with our eyes open, and then let’s do the pose with our eyes closed and just see how it differs. That is known to help our sense of proprioception and introception. So our sense of where are we in space, which very much is related to balance. 

[00:10:37] And it also by opening and closing our eyes, doing the pose different ways, it opens up different pathways neuro pathway. So, yes. And when people come, let’s say we’re doing a small group class. So one person with MS may come and they’re suffering from, or I should say challenge. We like to use more positive words, are challenged with fatigue, then another one has extreme spasticity and another one is really anxious. The practice is gonna benefit them each in different ways, just like it would anybody else who’s entering a yoga class and a skilled, adaptive yoga instructor can kind sense (this is a lot harder by the way, online, unless you’re interacting like you and I are interacting) what are the needs in the room and tailoring the class to the students rather than going in and teaching with your own agenda. So I always tell the people that I train and our teachers, cause we have a team of teachers. You can go ahead and make your own agenda and your own sequence of poses and practices that you’re gonna do. But if you enter and you find that people are in a different mindset or their bodies are, the heat is getting to them, or, you know the weather or their, their mood is, you know, low you’ve, gotta decide how you’re gonna tailor the class to them and throw out whatever you had planned.  

[00:12:34] And could  

[00:12:36] Geoff Allix: You’ve written a book, “Adaptive Yoga Moves Any Body” you have adaptive yoga cards, you have videos. So. Could people take that as an individual and actually apply it to themselves if you like, is it, you know, is, is it still beneficial to, to actually follow along with videos? Can you actually take that guidance and think, okay. Yeah, I can understand that. I’ll do this a bit differently or I won’t do that exercise, but I will do that one. 

[00:13:02] Is it worthwhile for someone to, to do a practice on their own or is there different levels as well? I mean, obviously the ideal would be a one to one with yourself. Unfortunately that’s quite a long flight for me.  

[00:13:14] Mindy Eisenberg: I’ll come to you. No problem. I’ll be there.  

[00:13:17] Geoff Allix: Well, we don’t actually have an airport anyway, so but you know, is, is there sort of different levels? 

[00:13:22] So, you know, is it worthwhile me following along whether it’s YouTube videos, whether it’s a book, you know, can I still get benefit .  

[00:13:29] Mindy Eisenberg: Absolutely. So the question becomes the student because we all learn differently. The reason that I developed the book and the cards is because my students asked me and they are the teacher’s greatest teacher. 

[00:13:48] So they asked for something that could cue them at home because coming to class once a week is really not enough. And in order to develop a practice at home, it’s helpful to have some guidelines and, the cards were actually second after the book, the book I made it into a monster because someone asked for some cues at home and some pictures and instructions, and all of a sudden I was writing this guidebook 

[00:14:20] And then after that, decided that the cards were necessary because they could pick out a few cards and tailor it to what their needs are. Let’s say you only have time for three poses or you are working on something. Like, I think you were talking about boat pose, you know, you could pick out boat pose and maybe a few other poses and that’s it for the day. 

[00:14:44] And so it depends. I have students who’ll come to me and they wanna read the book and they wanna see every word. And then I have other students who really want the videos and don’t wanna see the book or the cards. And we have live classes. In addition to videos in our on demand system is almost ready where people can then choose the video that they want and do it at the time of day, they want, of course we’re on different time zones. Although I have a few people coming from Australia, which I’m very proud of on my Tuesday nights. It’s like it’s Wednesday morning for her. So that’s kind of fun, but the idea is that you’re gonna tailor it to your needs. 

[00:15:34] I think it helps. Some people just want the grasp of having that picture in front of them and having the detailed instructions. What if I do it wrong? What if I do it wrong? And you know, there’s some fear in that. And I always say the first priority is safety after that. You know, we wanna get an alignment or, you know, somewhat of an optimal blueprint, but that blueprint changes for every single body. 

[00:16:07] Geoff Allix: I spoke to someone who was a thi chi instructor and there’s sort of a lot of similarities to some of the approaches and that, that was similar in a way she was saying, look, you know, you might not be doing it perfectly. But by doing these poses, the ones, you know, they’re not, it’s not going to do you any harm. And if, and by trying that, that will be beneficial to you. You could have someone come along and say, you’re not doing that perfectly, but actually that’s still good. And that ultimately you, maybe you will end up doing it perfectly, but you are going down the right path. And I think that sounds similar to what you’re saying. 

[00:16:41] Mindy Eisenberg: And the thing about yoga is, and this is our cultures are we’re taught to think there’s a goal. What’s the goal? And what’s the end goal? Right?  

[00:16:54] Geoff Allix: And are you winning?  

[00:16:55] Mindy Eisenberg: Are you winning? Did you get an A? But yoga is called a practice for a reason. And the practice is every day you get on your mat or you sit in your chair and you have a breath practice and that is gonna change on a daily basis . it’s not about getting the A or, nailing the pose. I’m gonna close the door here because my dogs are barking. I don’t know if you heard that or not, but just so. 

[00:17:31] Geoff Allix: That’s fine.  

[00:17:33] Mindy Eisenberg: So it’s not . That perfect triangle pose or downward dog or mountain pose or tree pose. Tree pose is gonna vary every single day you do it. And if you do it in the morning, and then you do it in the afternoon and you do it at night, or you do it when it’s dark or when it’s light out guaranteed, the pose is gonna change. 

[00:17:57] So how do we rate it as an, a, B, C, D, or an E? It’s not a pass fail. 99% of yoga or meditation or Tai Chi is actually showing up and doing it for yourself. I feel strongly about that.  

[00:18:19] Geoff Allix: And would you say that the, the mindfulness portion of, because yoga traditionally has had that part to it that certainly going back, wait, I was gonna say way back to when I was 25, I guess, giving away how old I am. 

[00:18:33] But yeah, quite a long time back when I was 25. And didn’t have any. If I had MS. I had certainly had no symptoms. I had no knowledge of it and I was, you know, fully active and but going to a yoga class, it always ended with a mindfulness portion. Is that, is that a useful part of it, do you think? 

[00:18:49] Mindy Eisenberg: Absolutely. We build mindfulness into our teachings and I was attracted to mindfulness based stress reduction and John Kabat-Zinn who you may be familiar with. In fact, I kind of quoted what he said, which is 99% of it is showing up. And, and he often says that just showing up is so much, that is the practice. 

[00:19:16] And mindfulness teaches us to focus on the sensation in our body, which helps us to get into our body. So yoga and mindfulness it’s almost difficult to split them apart. They so much come together. And I used the principles of mindfulness as our foundation for the class. Obviously breathing is a primary focus. 

[00:19:45] And then when we’re looking at poses, it’s sensation in the body. And it might be a pleasant sensation and it may be a, not so pleasant. It might be uncomfortable, but how do we respond to that versus react will change how it manifests in the body. I have students who’ve told me that their spasms will quiet down when they focus on their breath. 

[00:20:19] That they’ll notice that, that they sleep better. The tendency, especially when we have a condition like MS, is to wanna run from the body. You just wanna get outta your body. Like the body’s disappointing, right? And every day you don’t know what it’s gonna bring up. Am I gonna be tired? Am I gonna be able to move? 

[00:20:44] How’s my balance gonna be? And the idea with yoga is it’s actually making friends again. You know, some people say that they’re at peace with their body when they do yoga and the idea with the adaptive yoga is you’re not identified by your MS. You know, that your MS isn’t you, that’s not who you are.  

[00:21:15] Geoff Allix: And so certainly worthwhile you, somebody lives a long way away from you. There’s certainly think resources that, that I can get from that. Do you think it’s worthwhile being part of a group? and rather than just doing YouTube videos on my own, is there a community side to it as well? Would you say?  

[00:21:36] Mindy Eisenberg: Absolutely. Absolutely. I think you mentioned you live off in, are you isolated out there? 

[00:21:42] Geoff Allix: Well, I mean, I mean, in Devon in the UK, so the, I dunno if you know, the UK, the bit that points down into the Atlantic Ocean is, is part of that. So it’s in, and I, yeah, I live in a fairly rural area of that. So yes, long way from a city.  

[00:21:59] Mindy Eisenberg: Might be a little bit more challenging for you? I have found, been pleasantly surprised by the virtual online live classes that a community has developed. 

[00:22:09] Like I said, we have Paula coming from Australia. She’s brought her friend Ginny, and they’re talking with our friends from the states here. And since COVID, it’s become, we are meeting now a few years. We’re friends online. Right? And there is in a, there is a community aspect to it feeling like you belong. 

[00:22:34] And that was something I did not plan for when, when I started this. And perhaps it, it is the most important benefit is this feeling of belonging. Yoga provides a structure for a support group. And what’s cool about it is it’s a, the positive energy that bubbles up as people encourage each other. So there is a tremendous benefit from being part of a community. 

[00:23:09] Yes. And that’s why it’s my mission to train other people around the world to be able to feel comfortable teaching these classes. And we even have, we have students who have MS who take, who have taken the teacher training and gone on to be awesome teachers.  

[00:23:31] Geoff Allix: So you have students with MS as well as teachers with MS. 

[00:23:34] Mindy Eisenberg: Yes. Yes, very proud of that. And I’m proud of them and they are role models. Because, and, and, and you can see when they first started yoga to a year or two later, even how it’s been beneficial for them and how they’ve changed. You can see it. It’s not just, you can see it physically, but you can also feel it by interacting with them. 

[00:24:03] Geoff Allix: And. So that’s two of the, the parts. Overcoming MS has has several pillars. One of those is, is exercise. One of those mindfulness and you, you seem to tick those off with that yoga practice, although I would say actually one, one thing The, the exercise portion of it. Would you say that there’s a cardio element to this? Or would you maybe add that in as well? Like, is it, is that something that’s beneficial to say actually raising your heart rate, somewhat getting somewhat out breath is beneficial and, and does, is, is that something in addition to yoga that you would say, or is that something that actually there’s yoga? 

[00:24:40] Mindy Eisenberg: Yeah, I, I agree that I, with many who say that different practices or different types of exercises are important. Yoga may not satisfy all of those needs. Now the yoga that became very popular was this hot yoga, right. And that yoga moved faster.  

[00:25:01] Geoff Allix: I was gonna mention hot yoga because I think a lot of people with MS would be very put off the idea of certainly me. 

[00:25:06] Mindy Eisenberg: No, they will not like that. Right. So hot yoga became very popular and it tends to move fast. Depends on the style. There’s a Vinyasa type of yoga where you’re moving with breath fast. You, you do a sequence of poses they’re flowing. And at that time in my life, when I was practicing that, I think I was getting the cardio benefit. 

[00:25:30] As I’ve gotten older, I’m not doing the same fast practice. When you take your arms up over your head, your heart rate does go up. So there is a cardio element to it, but I wouldn’t put it as a strong, you know, like I still think it’s important when you’re looking to do cardio to possibly do another type of exercise. 

[00:25:55] And, the philosophy seems to shift with MS I feel like maybe you’ve heard this. When I first started teaching yoga. I’m like, look, if you get fatigued stop, but now I’ve heard is I’ve done some of these teacher trainings, some of the physical therapists and a physician was pushing back a little bit and said, well, there’s some studies coming out saying that, maybe push a little bit more, just a little bit more, get over that edge then stop. Take a break start again. It’s not that different. I think it’s about when do you stop? And then when do you start again?  

[00:26:36] Geoff Allix: Yeah, I mean, absolutely. I think because my father had MS Your mother had MS certainly their generation were told don’t do too much exercise. And I, and I was told very early on by a, a neurological physiotherapist, who said, if you think about it as a circle, and if you’re sort of spiraling around inside that circle, like a coin you get sometimes in this sort of fair ground where your sort of charity donation, which coin goes round around, around and falls down the middle. it’s almost like that. If you, the less you do. Your circle will get smaller. And then if you do a bit less, because you’re not pushing out on the circle, it will get a little bit smaller still, and it gets a little bit smaller still. 

[00:27:16] And he said, eventually you’re going to be doing nothing because you can’t do anything. But if you push out on that circle a little bit, that’s going to be uncomfortable, but you will hopefully get that circle to, if not get bigger, certainly not get smaller. So you’re trying to push out and, and yes, that isn’t the traditional, the, or the old fashioned, if you like, way of thinking about this, but actually it is going to be, and it’s as an personal perspective, it’s more uncomfortable than it used to be. 

[00:27:45] So I used to really push it. I I’ve run marathons. I’ve rock climbed. I’ve done a lot of things where I, I would really push to get you know, really. So I was, it, it complete exhaustion then I was okay. Afterwards after 20 minutes, I was okay. I was functioning again. Okay. I may be a bit sore, but I was functioning. Now it’s different. So now I might be wiped out for the rest of the day if I really push it. So it would be that I’d need to sleep properly before I get back to normal. So it has changed, but certainly, and certainly I may need to think about when I exercise, but I do think that if I really still do push it, maybe not to that extent, but pushing the envelope a little bit, maybe do it later in the day. 

[00:28:32] Maybe not the start of the day that cuz I think exercising first thing in the day I do have the risk that I’m a bit wiped out for the rest of the day. But if I exercise in the evening, I kind of think, well, what am I doing after this? I’m thinking, well, my plans are kind of to sit down and watch TV and I’m like, okay, worst case scenario. 

[00:28:51] I’m sitting down watching TV. It’s a bit harder for me to get up. And get to the fridge, but it’s not the end of the world and then I’m gonna sleep. And then in the morning I’ll be okay. So I, I think maybe it’s just changing how I do exercise, but certainly I, I do agree that I was certainly told it’s good to do something that does push it a bit more. 

[00:29:13] Now I don’t go with that old fashioned approach of do nothing, cuz you’ll feel worse.  

[00:29:18] Mindy Eisenberg: Absolutely. I think, yeah, our, our parents They did, they did not receive the benefit of the modern philosophy. I, you know, my mom was told, they thought the PT was making her worse. Stop, the physical therapy, stop exercising, stop everything. 

[00:29:34] And what happened her body? I mean, she had primary progressive, so it was going super duper fast with, you know, the slope was down, but she ended up in a fetal position. You know, totally spastic in a fetal position. It was hard to straighten her legs and she couldn’t, you know, move. And I, I firmly believe that if I would have known, then what I know now I would’ve been able to help her, you know, stretch and feel more comfortable in her body. 

[00:30:05] So I do think the yoga helps you determine how much to push and how much to pull back or when to pull back and being in a group, whether it’s online or in person is, and probably, well, obviously more when you’re in person, you’re gonna be a little bit pushed by the group to do what you can, you know, and maybe to elevate the bar just a little. 

[00:30:38] And, but at the same time, we’re encouraging a safe environment. There’s the other philosophy, like no pain, all gain. And I use that no pain, all gain, but there are some people are pushing back now on that philosophy saying, oh, you know, maybe a little bit is okay. So it really is an internal decision to measure or to assess how much is too much or can I do a little bit more or do I need to back off?  

[00:31:13] Geoff Allix: Yeah. Yeah, I think a little bit, but I don’t, I mean, personally certainly don’t like beast it, you know, don’t go crazy. Yes, but yeah, pushing it a little bit, certainly in, but I just say it’s a personal thing. I think you need to, you know, everyone knows their own body and I think that’s one of the things with MS, we all know we’re all different. And so I think you need to try a. See how that goes. How are you the next day? What, at what time? Yes. Some people are better and when it’s warm, some people are better when it’s cold. Some people are better in the morning. Some people are better in the afternoon. So I think you just have to learn don’t you. 

[00:31:45] Mindy Eisenberg: Yes, the other measurement we use in yoga is the breath. And so you always have that barometer, if you will, where if your breath is fast and rapid and shallow. That is a really good indicator of fatigue. If the breath is non-existent meaning holding the breath, that is also an indicator of either fatigue or fear or a need to back off. 

[00:32:26] So the breath can provide you with information about what do you need to do next? And I, this has gotten more attention since COVID. I think breathing has gotten more attention, even though we take over 20 to 25,000 breaths a day. I mean, what could be more important than focusing on breathing? And that’s where it’s like, people are afraid to try yoga, but you’re breathing. 

[00:32:55] If you are breathing, you can do yoga.  

[00:32:59] Geoff Allix: I think we actually, some of the things with COVID we, there are some things it’s given us. And one of those is that virtual side of things. So we get that, those virtual communities, which I don’t think we would’ve got not to the extent that we have, like you were saying, you’ve got someone from Australia, who’s joining a class in Michigan. 

[00:33:18] And certainly we have like online groups, which we didn’t really have to the same extent before. So there are some benefits you know, I know it’s horrific thing and, and, and certainly overall it’s definitely a bad thing, but, but yeah, we have to take sort of where, where there are some good things. And actually it has given us that, that global connectedness and certainly when you are in somewhere more remote, that ability to connect with people and do things online. Yeah. So the other thing, I mean, so there’s two other things I wanted to discuss. One is one of the things about yoga is also, it does have other parts to it. So, so often people who practice yoga are interested in a whole food plant-based diet. So one of the tenants of, of Overcoming MS, one I’ve mentioned is there’s diet. There’s mindfulness, I’m sorry. I’ve mentioned there’s exercise mindfulness, but another one is diet. Another one is a largely whole food based diet. And, and is, does that fit with your understanding? 

[00:34:19] Mindy Eisenberg: Absolutely. So what tends to happen for many of us who practice yoga is that you become more aware of your body. You also become more aware of what you’re putting in your body and even the people you’re surrounded with. So it starts to impact your whole lifestyle. And in fact, the yogis knew this thousands of years ago, the sister science to yoga developed called Ayurveda and Ayurveda is very much about being in tune with nature and is based on the elements in our body, which, and we all have these elements, earth, water, air, fire, space, and they formulate what’s called doshas or body types. We all have all three of the doshas, but there it one might be more prominent than another. The idea behind Ayurveda is that it’s not necessarily a disease. 

[00:35:22] But it’s the symptoms or the elements or the doshas that are imbalanced. And it’s about bringing back balance. And how that is done is through our yoga practice, our breathing practice, our meditation practice and eating. So what our, our nutrition is. And the idea is, let’s say you are like right now, it’s summertime here. 

[00:35:57] So it’s, hot in Michigan. It’s like 90 degrees. You would, you would eat things or consume things that are more cooling for your body, such as mint or cucumber. And then in the winter, when it’s cooler, we’re encouraged to have more cooked food, not raw food. So raw food really pretty much primarily when I’m, I’m generalizing now cause there’s more to it. But raw food is generally in the summer and then cooked food is more in the cooler months. And so Ayurveda bases the diet or nutrition component on the type of body. Where you are in life because that’s gonna impact you. So whether you’re in, you know, you’re a child versus an adult and, or a mature adult. 

[00:36:53] And the time of day, like for instance the belief is that noon. So midday is the time to have that’s the most important meal in terms of, and that’s when you’re not the most important meal. It’s when new, your ability to for your digestive system is more active. That’s when you want it’s called Pitta or fire. 

[00:37:17] The fire in your belly is highest. So that’s when you would have perhaps your biggest meal and there’s different practices to help you ease into the day in terms of your diet and just sipping like lemon water throughout your day can be an Ayurvedic practice, an Ayurvedic practitioner or, or teacher or someone you would go to to help you find out what your dosha, they actually read your pulse. 

[00:37:44] It’s not the pulse that you, that a a medical doctor would read it’s a different pulse that they have to read . I practice Ayurveda. I have, I I’m not what you would call like an expert in Ayurveda, but it was part of my yoga therapy training. So I don’t know how to read pulses. But it can take thousands of, you know, reading to really get it down and they there’s different layers of the pulse, but it’s very, very informative and it’s, it’s actually fascinating. 

[00:38:12] Geoff Allix: It’s interesting as well. When I’ve, I’ve spoken to people who are looking at fasting now and one of the things medically actually is that your insulin levels go up and down over the day. And, and that when you eat in a, in a sort of a medical or scientific basis is you shouldn’t actually have a huge meal at breakfast actually lunch is the best time. And they’re actually saying that that maybe eating between say 12 and eight is, is a good window to actually eat most of your calories. And actually first thing in the morning is not that sort of traditional huge breakfast. I know. I mean, we have it in the UK. 

[00:38:51] We have full English breakfast and in America I’ve seen it in hotels as well, where you’ve got a big spread of, you know, sausage, bacon, you even have multiple types of bacon. We only have a couple of times. Yeah. So when going to American diner and saying, I want bacon, and here you would, that would be the end of the question, but in America notes, what type Turkey, bacon, Canadian bacon it’s endless anyway. 

[00:39:17] But yeah, that, but they’re going away from that. So actually what you were saying, actually, so you are saying that’s a, a, a very traditional thing, but actually there’s a scientific basis from it now. So it’s, it’s interesting. I think some of the things. That, how that are in traditional medicine that actually modern medicine ends up with the same result. 

[00:39:35] Cuz clearly the traditional medicine was something developed over hundreds or even thousands of years. And they worked out what worked now. We’ve worked out there’s a scientific basis, but it’s still the same result. They’re still saying do the same thing, but now they go actually here’s the science. And you go, okay. 

[00:39:53] Mindy Eisenberg: Yeah. You just, it’s a little bit, it’s a little bit backwards, but somehow these ancient practices now have come full circle and maybe there’s more of a modern approach to it. I don’t know if they would’ve called it fasting or, but they, they knew, so maybe they were more in touch with their bodies.  

[00:40:15] Geoff Allix: Well, yeah, now we call ketosis or something, but then it was just like, okay, well, so I was speaking to another doctor about the use of cannabinoids and cannabis based treatments. 

[00:40:24] It is a very similar thing because obviously that’s been around for you know, millennium the use of, of cannabis in, in medicine. And and now they’re coming up with the science behind what it’s actually doing, how it’s chemically and biologically working. But again, coming around to, yeah, actually that does work for that. 

[00:40:43] It’s like, well, yeah, they kind of knew that cause they’d been doing for thousands of years, but now we know why it’s doing that. So yeah, I think it’s interesting, those sort of things. So I, one thing I will say, so you have loads of resources, which will, we will share in the show notes but there is, there is lots of other it’s, as you said, it’s worthwhile getting part of the community. So I certainly, there are rather yoga teachers available and also just to sort of a self plug on the Overcoming MS website there’s also one of our facilitators who’s called Veronique Gauthier Simmonds. 

[00:41:14] She, she has also yoga videos on our website as well, which are sort of adaptive. But as you say, I think it is useful. If you can get a group and getting some feedback, I think there’s sort of one level. Yeah. Reading a book, watching a, a YouTube video. But I do. I agree with you. There’s definitely a benefit to a feedback and a community as well. So whether that be a Zoom basis or whether it be a physical basis.  

[00:41:41] Mindy Eisenberg: You know, for some people, it’s the only interaction they have all day or week. And, and so that interaction is invaluable. 

[00:41:50] Geoff Allix: And it can be an isolating condition, MS as well. I do think there are a lot of people. 

[00:41:56] Mindy Eisenberg: So what the virtual format has done is made it more accessible to people who couldn’t, you know, get to it. If you know, living far away or needing to drive it, it’s made really, you can do so much more, but in a, in person, class, Our teachers are taught to physically help. If let’s say somebody can’t reach a tie, then we’re gonna hand them the tie. 

[00:42:25] Or let’s say someone is having a challenge stretching their leg and they like to stretch it a little bit more. So our teachers are trained to help with that in a safe way, which means a lot of feedback going on between the student and the teacher to make sure that it, it feels okay in their body and that they’re getting the benefit. 

[00:42:50] Geoff Allix: So, thank you very much for joining us to start with. But as a final point, if someone is newly diagnosed with MS, they’ve gone through the shock of it. They’ve, they’ve spoken to their neurologist, they’ve done that side of things. They’re looking into the exercise, you know what they should and shouldn’t be doing. 

[00:43:10] What, what piece of advice would you give someone who is newly diagnosed? What’s a useful tip for them.  

[00:43:18] Mindy Eisenberg: I think it’s really when someone’s newly diagnosed. That’s a really good question. If someone calls me and they’re really, if they’re new, like fresh new, I usually do not encourage them to come to our group class because it can be a lot. It can be a little overwhelming. I encourage them to find something that they enjoy, whatever type of movement that, but might already be something that they’re doing. If they were a runner and now they’re heat sensitive, they may have to find something else. It might be swimming. It might be Tai Chi, but to keep moving and interacting. The MS community is an amazing community of people and rather than run from it, embrace it. Cause these people, everybody I’ve met with MS is inspiring, you know, living with these type of challenges and so many different levels and still the people who tend to come to our classes, that law of attraction, these are really positive people. You’re gonna pick up a lot of positive vibes. So surround yourself by this positive energy. And don’t become identified by this diagnosis.  

[00:44:43] Geoff Allix: Right. With that. Thank you very much for joining us. I would encourage everyone to check out YogaMovesMS.Org and. check out the show notes links are in there to all the resources. 

[00:44:53] But thank you very much for joining us. Mindy Eisenberg. 

[00:45:03] Thank you for listening to this episode of Living Well with MS. Please check out this episode’s show notes at OvercomingMS.org/podcast. You’ll find all sorts of useful links and bonus information there. Do you have questions about this episode or ideas about future ones? Email us at [email protected]. We’d love to hear from you. You can also subscribe to the show on your favorite podcast platform. So you never miss an episode Living Well with MS is kindly supported by a grant from the Happy Charitable Trust. If you’d like to support the Overcoming MS charity and help keep our podcast advertising free you can donate online at OvercomingMS.org/donate. To learn more about Overcoming MS and its array of free content and programs, including webinars, recipes, exercise guides, OMS Circles, our global network of community support groups, and more. Please visit our website at OvercomingMS.Org. While you are there, don’t forget to register for our monthly e-newsletter so you can stay informed about the podcast and other news and updates from Overcoming MS. Thanks again for tuning in and see you next time. 

[00:46:20] The Living Well with MS family of podcasts is for private non-commercial use and exists to educate and inspire our community of listeners. We do not offer medical advice. For medical advice, please contact your doctor or other licensed healthcare professional. Our guests are carefully selected, but all opinions are expressed are solely their own and do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of the Overcoming MS charity, its affiliates or staff.