S6E20 Meditation with Overcoming MS facilitator Yvette Sargood

Overcoming MS  00:17

Welcome to Living well with Ms. This show comes to you from overcoming ms, the world’s leading multiple sclerosis healthy lifestyle charity which helps people live a full and healthy life through the overcoming MS program, we interview a range of experts and people with multiple sclerosis. Please remember all opinions expressed are their own. Help others discover living well with Ms. If you enjoy the show, please rate and review us wherever you listen to podcasts. And now let’s meet our guest.

 

Geoff Allix  00:53

Welcome to the latest edition of the living well with MS podcast. Joining me on this edition is Yvette Sargood. Yvette is a leadership coach and also an overcoming ms facilitator. So welcome to the podcast, Yvette.

 

Yvette Sargood  01:06

Thank you.

 

Geoff Allix  01:09

And just to start off, could you introduce yourself a little bit more than I have, and tell us a bit about your MS journey and overcoming ms journey?

 

Yvette Sargood  01:18

Sure, of course. So I’m Yvette. I’m a mother of three grown up children. I have a lovely partner called Jurgen, and I guess he’s like my number one cheerleader. And we live in Ascot near Windsor in the UK. I love learning, so that’s a big thing for me. Then you may hear some of that throughout the podcast, and I really try and stay as active as I possibly can. And my kind of latest, new thing that I’ve taken up is adaptive rowing, so happy to talk more about that, if, if that’s something kind of worth exploring later on, it’s certainly a challenge. As you said, I’ve got my own business, and I coach leaders in organization, and I also teach mindfulness to people living with MS through the charity MS UK.  I guess my story with MS is pretty similar to a lot of other people’s. I had my first symptoms when I was 23 which is, you may not believe it, but over 35 years ago, so a long, long time ago, and my symptoms at that point were optic neuritis. And I had a kind of series of episodes of optic neuritis over, I guess, about 20 years, 20 years plus. So I managed to avoid diagnosis. I think I really sought out, if you like, the more passive neurologists who were very happy to just let things be, you know, the well, let’s wait and see what happens. And so I was very happy to really put my head in the sand and pretend that this was, you know, it comes and it goes, and actually, it’s nothing I really need to worry about. So I was quite happy to get on with a global career, family and really just get on, get on with my my life. So that’s when, I guess, you know, 20 odd years later, since my first symptom, I started my journey with overcoming ms, because I noticed other things were starting to happen to me. I was getting sort of weakness down my right hand side and my leg, which was collapsing, I was getting dropped foot,  my hand and arm were getting a little bit sticky, and I thought, Hmm, okay, something’s going on here. I knew I had MS, I mean, you know, I was very aware of that, even though I was in sweet denial, shall we say. And in 2013/2014 I proactively went, what can I do? What can I find out out there that’s really going to help me take control of this thing. And so, like many people, did a bit of Googling, found George Jeleneks book, consumed it within a day, cleared out my cupboards within 48 hours, and really embraced the program. I’m an all or nothing person. So it was like, okay, I’m full in here. And, you know, really, I was super lucky that I was able to join an overcoming ms workshop in Birmingham a few weeks later and join a retreat in London the same year. So I was very quickly, once I’d stepped into the space, fully on board. You know, over the years, I kind of played this little game of, you know, avoiding diagnosis. And my kind of went through a few neurologists over this time, and they, they were, they were very comfortable with that. Because I think, you know, I think all that time ago, you know, the criteria may have been slightly different. I think the drugs were more limited, and I’m not sure I was up for taking drugs at that point in time, because I was able to just live my life normally, and there wasn’t the research that there is now, really to support early use of dmts for a kind of more positive outcome. So, you know, I was very happy to do that. But there was also something else, I came across very early in my career in corporate life, a case of where I saw discrimination against an individual with multiple sclerosis, and I, at that point, was very aware this is what I probably had, and that really stuck with me. And I, you know, so it became a, it came a, this is something I need to hold close because I didn’t want to experience any bias in terms of kind of my career progression and opportunities for me. So yeah, that was something very significant for me that very much supported my choice throughout my career in corporate, not to not to disclose and share.

 

Geoff Allix  07:04

I do think things have changed dramatically in the last five or 10 years in termsof, you mentioned DMTs. So the drugs available is hugely different. The understanding of the medical profession about lifestyle changes is changed dramatically over the last five or 10 years, that, but also just the legislation as well about discrimination. Again, you know, because that they can’t discriminate against people based on having MS and they and and accessibility as well as got so, you know, all these things, there’s just so much change that’s happened. I feel very grateful that I’m in this time then I’m then, like being in the 90s or something would be dramatically different.

 

Yvette Sargood  07:51

So starting my career out was the 90s, and, you know, having seen some of that discrimination, I couldn’t eradicate that. I mean, you know, yes, the laws have changed over the years, and I still hear of people experiencing discrimination in organizations, even though that should not be happening, you know, I think there’s still some way to go in relation to really, you know, that full getting rid of that disability kind of exclusion and really creating an environment where disabilities are welcomed, because we all have such rich experiences to bring to the workplace. You know, we have natural resilience, just because that’s what we have to bring to our life every single day. So, yeah, we’ve got a lot to bring.

 

Geoff Allix  08:59

And so, because you were sort of late to diagnosis, you also, it took quite a while before you started the overcoming MS program. So I mean is, is there a benefit? Again this might be people who were actually formally diagnosed 20 years ago and have only just come across overcoming ms or it might be somewhat similar to you, but is there a benefit to actually joining the overcoming MS program, even if you’ve had MS for quite a while?

 

Yvette Sargood  09:30

Yeah, and I think that’s a really great question. Geoff, and absolutely. So I’ve been on the program now for 10/11, years, and I think you know what I experienced, even after a few weeks of changing my diet radically, taking the vitamin D, being more kind of disciplined, I guess, in relation to my exercise and stuff, I noticed that I was less fatigued. I’ve got more energy. I could really do more in life. So absolutely, I think it’s, it’s super important to do. And I think, you know, for me, the whole mindfulness element was something I’ve tried many times before, not because of my MS, but to deal with kind of the stress in my career and failed dismally. You know, once I really understood, you know, the science, the evidence base behind practicing mindfulness for people with MS, I was on board and I was on the headspace app, and you know, that was, that was a fundamental shift for me. I think because I’d lived so long in denial with my MS, it was such a fundamental shift in terms of actually moving into a place of acceptance and actually starting to give myself a break, you know, starting to be a little kinder to myself, because I was very critical and harsh with all the things that I couldn’t do in life.

 

Geoff Allix  11:26

I believe you did start a disease modifying therapy in 2016 and just to be clear, that overcoming MS is not against disease modifying therapies. It’s actually one of the pillars. It’s, it’s, you know, take the best advice you can, you know, alongside diet and exercise, vitamin D, but equally to these modifying therapies, how did that go? I mean, again, so after having a rest for a while you did go on to a DMT, and how did you find that?

 

Yvette Sargood  11:56

Yeah, well, I’d actually been to see a neurologist who said, I know you’ve been avoiding diagnosis. However, I do think there is a drug that may be helpful for you. And so he pointed me in the direction of somebody at Charing Cross who could support me with that. And so I proactively, at that point, sought a diagnosis. And guess what? I got a diagnosis, because I had MS, you know, like multiple lesions, sort of floating around, and, and so. And the drug I started was Tecfidera. So even for that, even though that’s for, you know, predominantly relaxing, remitting, I responded positively to two doses of steroids, which meant that I still had some activity within my body. So there were two ticks to say, actually, that does mean I can take tecfidera, even though I’ve had MS for, you know, however many years, but, but there’s also evidence to show that it can slow down progression as well. So, you know, I’m in that camp of relapsing remitting progression. And I think there’s a move now to kind of try and move away from these different ms labels. So, so that was my experience, but it’s a bit like a minefield. It took me six months to actually start the drug, you know, because it’s really scary. I’d been drug free up until that point in my life. So it felt like a real big step to actually start to take a drug that potentially I’d be taking for a long, long time. So yeah, it was, it was hard, and I’m actually at another decision point now, because on an MRI, they’ve just found a kind of new it’s called a very tiny lesion, apparently. So I’m not sure how big or small that is, but it’s super tiny. That was the radiographers kind of description. Now, you know, do I kind of up? Do I step up to ocrevus at this point in time, or do I stick on tecfidera? Because, you know, there could be a case to saying, well, everybody with MS is allowed one kind of tiny new lesion every 10 years. So, you know, I, I don’t know. So again, I’m in that process of, what do I do and but what I notice is I’m not getting as caught up right now with that process as I did first time around. And I don’t know why. Maybe I’m just a little bit more settled around it.

 

Geoff Allix  14:59

We often ask, when people go on to the overcoming MS program, what they found hardest to to actually adopt. And a lot of people say, I mean, I’d say the most common is mindfulness, but you’ve mentioned mindfulness already. I mean, was that a problem for you, or did you find other things difficult?

 

Yvette Sargood  15:20

Chocolate

 

Geoff Allix  15:23

chocolate?

 

Yvette Sargood  15:24

Chocolate was the hardest thing for me. And I was talking about that workshop I was able to join a few weeks after I’d started the program, and I was feeling very proud and chuffed that I’d kind of made it to, I can’t remember, 80 or 90% cacao, chocolate, and, and, you know. But I thought, I must just check this with the person who was talking about all this stuff on stage, which was Kerin from New Zealand at the time, and, and, and I went up, and I went, so I’m eating that’s okay, isn’t it? And she went, absolutely not. And I was going, what do I do then? Because obviously, you know, some of the listeners may or may not know, actually the higher percentage of cacao chocolate actually has higher levels of cacao butter in it, which is really high saturated fats, the highest saturated kind of fat part of chocolate, I think so it was like an absolute no no.

 

Geoff Allix  16:27

Yeah all of that counts to the percentage, doesn’t it? The when you say 80% chocolate, it’s actually 80% cocoa solids, I think they call it, which is basically all the fat and everything. It’s not just the cacao powder.

 

Yvette Sargood  16:41

So I really thought I’d found a way of, like, getting away from, you know, replacing my chocolate buttons with bits. And it was like, No, that isn’t the case. So, but, you know, I’m very happy now I’ve got, you know, with my 100% cacao powder, hot chocolates. And, you know, I make my cacao balls with almonds and dates, and it’s all good, so I’m getting my chocolate fixed, but just in different ways, the overcoming ms chef’s card, if people haven’t come across that before. Still in restaurants, the last two restaurants I’ve been to have gone, I’ve gone, okay, what can you do? Give this to the chef and he can come back, and what they do is come back with the menu and go, you can have this without we’ll take that out. We can do that so. And again, I think someone at the workshop I joined all those years ago said, you know, if they can’t actually make the food you need, you’re in the wrong restaurant. So, you know, kind of just find your way. Yeah it is a challenge, isn’t it for them? And yeah, so it’s great. It’s good.

 

Geoff Allix  17:48

Yeah, I had an amazing thing. I had we went for, it was like a sort of end of Season ball for a Surf Life Saving club that I’m involved with. And they had a buffet, and I’d given the chef my card, and he’d done me a sort of main course, because there wasn’t much on the buffet that I could have had. And then he came out and he said, Oh, the thing is, they can keep going back for more and more, but I’d already eaten the meal. And then he said, he said, but do you want something else? Because, because, actually, there was some vegan stuff that I could have eaten, but everyone else had eaten that already, because it was really nice. And he just said, Oh. He said, Oh, but no, you need something else. I’m gonna cook you up something. He just did me this extraordinary meal. And it was just like making some. He basically was showing off his sort I think if they like it, a good chef enjoys it, because actually probably they get bored of cooking the same things again and again and again, but a sort of challenge of like, All right, okay, let’s try.  So I hear like you that actually, when you join the program this, this annoys a lot of people that you lost too much weight. But, I mean, I would say that if you’re on a, apart from MS, if you’re on a plant based whole food diet, it’s actually very good for weight management as well, and that, which I think most of us have found. So did you, I mean, did you find it a problem, and have you managed to resolve that and get to a healthy weight?

 

Yvette Sargood  19:20

Yeah. Well, you can be the judges whether I’m a healthy weight or not. I think I am. And yeah, so my husband actually follows the diet with me, and we kind of at the beginning, both lost so much weight, and we probably didn’t have that much to lose anyway, and I we just overcame that by just eating more, um, filling our plates full of all the kind of nutritious food that we’re eating. But it was just really a case of going actually, we just have to increase our portion sizes now. I mean, most people are trying to decrease. But we were just like having to just eat so much more, but yeah, and find the rhythm, you know, because to start off with, it was a bit boring as well, because we were trying to kind of cook the same few meals. And now we have our full repertoire. And hey, we’re good. We love our food. Yeah, we’d never go back.

 

Geoff Allix  20:22

And I think you need it. You need a new set of cookbooks, don’t you? You need to throw away all the old cookbooks, but, and there are some fantastic I mean, well, just to call out one, which is just for a meal I had last night, was that Ashley Madden, Ashley Madden’s someone with MS, who’s following overcoming MS and has written two cookbooks, but her food is just delicious. And like you say, I mean, I just this pad thai salad that she does, and I just had a massive bowl of it, but it’s just so full of different vegetables, and just, yeah, plain healthy food, but you can just eat loads of it because, yeah, it’s all good for you. What sort of benefits have you found then? So from following the program for quite a long time now, have you had improvements from that?

 

Yvette Sargood  21:09

So you know I’ve had MS for a very long time, and I think you know, my MS is still progressing. However, I am probably more active now than I have been in decades. I do so much more exercise, I think generally I’m stronger. I’m, I think, a lot kinder to myself. So, yeah, I think I said this earlier, give myself a lot more kind of slack. And I think overall, I’m really fulfilled in life. So I have a real rich and varied life. I think being part of the overcoming ms community has really I’ve met some fantastic people. I’ve met some inspiring people. I’ve made so many new friends, I think it’s really equipped me to explore different things. So I’ve really kind of opened up to new experiences. I’m a bit more kind of brave and courageous than maybe I’d been in the past. You know, I started to do a MSc in mindfulness part time at Exeter University that I finished in 2020 so actually, the whole program has just opened up so many new avenues for me that I just wouldn’t have got to I don’t think any other way.

 

Geoff Allix  22:50

Because it’s sort of in the corporate world you work, so working as a leadership coach, and we mentioned about MS and how that could cause a problem in the workplace. So firstly, I mean, we’re both in the UK, so this is going to be different in different parts of the world, but I mean disclosing to an employer that you have MS, I mean, this is something I think all of us probably worried about whether they did or didn’t. I mean, I think it does depend on your employer. I found it a very positive experience. I knew my management team very well, and I thought it would be fine. Absolutely it was, and they were very supportive. But what would you encourage people to do?

 

Yvette Sargood  23:41

So I am no, I am no legal expert. So, so I think that’s really important to say, and people have no obligation to disclose their diagnosis of MS to their employer. However, I think, as we talked to earlier, I think if there is any adaptation or accommodation that the organization can make that’s really going to help you, that could make all the difference into, I guess, from you being kind of okay at your job, to maybe somebody who’s really thriving at work. And I guess this is a space I’m really stepping into now from a different angle, because you know somebody who actually, you know, spent their career really not sharing. You know what was going on for me, I’m very conscious that there is a really stark under representations of leaders at the top of the top of the organization, so very few senior leaders with disclosed disabilities. And, you know, I’m kind of, now really working, you know, and helping organizations think about the impact of this, of not having those kind of role models at the top of organizations that people lower down can go, there’s somebody like me at the top of the organization, so having a disability something like MS is not going to get in the way of me progressing in my career. So I’m really supporting that kind of drive that there is now through my, through my leadership coaching. So that’s really important for me now within my work. I wrote an article with a collaborator, so if anybody’s interested in that, maybe we can post that at the bottom.

 

Geoff Allix  25:58

Yeah, we can put links in the show notes. So as a facilitator for overcoming ms, I’m aware that I mean, so I’ve been on overcoming ms retreats, and so the facilitators have a specialization. So firstly, what, what sections of the overcoming MS program do you lead the sessions in? And how have you found becoming a facilitator?

 

Yvette Sargood  26:31

Yeah, so probably no surprise. My kind of area of specialism is stress management and specifically mindfulness. So that’s where I contribute as a facilitator. So I am a newly qualified facilitator, and I’ve done a few things to date. So I did a session for all the overcoming ms volunteers last year. I’ve done some sessions on the pathways that are kind of around introducing the overcoming MS program to get to people new, wanting, wanting to do more, and I’m really excited to be part of the facilitator group doing the new global, let me get the name right. I think it’s the global online retreats. So, so we’re piloting, actually taking the retreats that have been very much face to face, and taking that into a virtual world.

 

Geoff Allix  27:47

And that as well. I mean, so it, there’s practical reasons why it’s good thing, because it’s global, because before I pretty much, I think Australia and the UK might be, yeah, I don’t think there are any. So if you were in Peru, it would be really difficult to get to overcoming ms retreat and also financially as well. So it’s so it’s much more cost effective that a lot of this content is online, but but live as well. So it’s not just there will be things to take away, but there’s also live sessions. So it’s, it’s something people can do from home or join it in a group of people as well. If you’ve got an internet connection, you can. So you mentioned mindfulness. Could you tell us a bit more about mindfulness and and why is mindfulness important for people with MS.

 

Yvette Sargood  28:38

Like what’s the definition of mindfulness? Then I think it’s very much so to keep it really simple, it’s about really being kind of present in the moment to what’s actually happening right now. So you know, it’s really about the awareness that comes in from tuning into ourselves, tuning into our thoughts, feelings, body sensations, but, but in a bringing a real, sort of kind, curious, light touch attitude to it. So, you know, I think as you,  we’re human beings, yeah, but however we spend very limited time actually being, and we spend most of our time doing and a lot of a time in our head. Yeah, so Geoff, I don’t know, I’m sure, like most of us, you know, you probably got examples of where you’ve been, in a beautiful place, you know, sitting by the sea and watching, you know, by the ocean, or being in a park. And maybe you’re actually really not present. You know, you’re not feeling the water as your toes are dabbling into the ocean, or maybe you’re not hearing the buzzing bees around you or noticing the trees in the park or the sun on your face, you know, because actually you’re listening to the chatter in your mind. You’ve got carried away by sort of different thoughts that are maybe taking you to not so helpful places, worries about what might happen in the future, or, you know, churning over stuff that’s happened in the past, and that’s really kind of mindless stuff that’s about when we’re having our mind full. And what we’re trying to do when we’re mind-ful, not full, but mindful, is, is really being here, really tuning into our experience right now and getting some joy out of that. Because, you know, particularly for us with MS, that chatter of the mind, getting carried away by our thoughts really just adds another layer of stress onto maybe the challenges that we have been living with such a chronic health condition anyway. So, so what mindfulness can do? The research really shows the stress buffering effects of mindfulness. So it’s shown that actually there can be, you know, a perceived reduction in the stress that we experience through practicing repeated and regular mindfulness. So there are kind of various studies probably now, over the last 20, 10/15, years, specifically for people with MS, which show the impact both on the kind of physical and the psychological impact of it. So, you know, reduce fatigue, reduce depression and anxiety, maybe improving balance. And there’s a lovely little study that, I think it was about 2014 that showed that actually, through mindfulness practice, actually it can reduce the number of lesions that appear on an MRI scan for people. And, you know, it can reduce the number of relapses. So do you know there’s loads of compelling evidence to say, why wouldn’t you give this a go? You know.

 

Geoff Allix  32:21

It’s worst case scenario it might just make you happier.

 

Yvette Sargood  32:25

It might just, it might just make you happier Absolutely. So, you know, a lot of people practice mindfulness in the world, whether they’ve got, MS, another chronic health condition or not. You know, it can be, it can be a great grounding exercise to really be present and actually experience a lot of the joy and pleasant stuff in life that when we’re off in our mind we miss.

 

Geoff Allix  32:53

What are some of the misconceptions that people have about meditation and stress reduction?

 

Yvette Sargood  33:00

There are quite, quite a few. I’m just back from a global mindfulness conference that was held at Bangor University, and Jon Kabat Zinn, who I’m sure some of you have heard about, sort of almost like the godfather of secular mindfulness, and he created Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction program back in the late 1980s. He described mindfulness as relationality, yeah, and big word, I’m kind of oh, okay, what’s that mean? It’s all about connected. So it’s all about connectedness. So I think one of the big misconceptions is that actually, if you practice mindfulness and sneak up to some quiet, silent place in the house, and, you know, sit and meditate, can almost be perceived as quite selfish, yeah, and you just doing that for you. And actually, I think, you know, we know that’s not the case, but you know that connectedness is it’s not just about me, it’s actually about we. Because actually, if we can, you know, gain greater awareness from our practice, then, you know, that can really have an impact on our relationships with others, and, you know, with the broader kind of world at large. So it can really shift  how we perceive, not only ourselves, but how we perceive others and ourrelationship with them. And, you know, and broader than that. So I think that’s a biggie. I think another misconception is that people think it’s all about clearing the mind, and it’s so not, yeah, it’s really about just noticing when the mind has wandered. We’re never going to stop it, and just kind of noticing that. And just coming back to whatever anchor we’re looking you know, we’re using, the breath or the body, and that’s where the rewiring of the brain kind of happens, and that can really sort of dampen that stress response for us. So we’re not trying to stop the mind wandering or getting carried away. We’re noticing it hopefully sooner, through practice and just coming back. So, you know, relaxation, we don’t practice mindfulness necessarily, with the goal of relaxation. That might be a byproduct, but, you know, just raising that, I think that’s an important misconception.

 

Geoff Allix  35:42

Thank you for those useful tips. But talking of tips, there’s something we often finish with. Do you have any tips for someone who’s newly diagnosed to to MS or is newly taking on the overcoming MS program?

 

Yvette Sargood  35:59

I think, so, jump into it. I think, you know, thinking about the attitudes around mindfulness might be helpful. So, you know, really hold it with a light touch. You know, get curious about, oh, what, what it is that is being required of the program, and why that’s important. So really getting curious about that, but I think, you know, really bringing a beginner’s mind to it. So thinking, you know, actually, if you mess up one day, that’s okay. There’s always the next day. So just kind of learn and just again, don’t be critical with yourself. You know, this is a, you know, it’s a journey, and you know, some days, you know, it may not go so well, but, but just, just kind of think about the intention. What’s so important about this that actually you’ve decided to embark on that journey and really hold that front and center. Because I think you know, if you can really focus on that, that will probably help you take the right actions.

 

Geoff Allix  37:22

And is there any final thoughts you’d have before we conclude?

 

Yvette Sargood  37:29

Yeah, it’s got to be a final thought about mindfulness. And you know, if anybody’s really struggling with the mindfulness practice, because a lot of people say this is the hardest pillar, the hardest part of the overcoming MS program to, you know, engage with. What can be really helpful is to join a course where you’re with other people who are starting out on this journey as well, and there can be a lot of support and learning from starting, you know, to practice mindfulness within a course. And I think, as I said at the beginning, I teach mindfulness through MS-UK, and you know, myself and Phil Startin, who’s a senior facilitator with overcoming Ms. We both teach programs through MS-UK. So take a look at the website. Maybe we can put the link to the different courses on there, because, you know, they’re the population of people with MS. So you know, it’s also a great place to connect with people who absolutely get it, and, you know, start to engage in the practice with others. Yeah,

 

Geoff Allix  38:56

And with that, just to reiterate, we’ll, we’ll add links in the show notes. So do check out links to resources and thank you very much for joining us. Yvette Sargood.

 

Yvette Sargood  39:06

Thank you. Thanks Geoff.

 

Overcoming MS  39:10

Thank you for listening to this episode of living well with Ms. Please check out this episode’s show notes at overcoming ms.org/podcast you’ll find useful links and bonus information there. Don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast so you never miss an episode, and please rate and review the show to help others find us. This show is made possible by the overcoming ms community. Our theme music is by Claire and Mab Dean. Our host is Geoff Allix. Our videos are edited by Lorna Greenwood and I’m the producer Regina Beach. Have questions or ideas to share, email us at [email protected], we’d love to hear from you. The living well with MS podcast is for private, non commercial use, and exists to educate and inspire our community of listeners we do not offer medical advice. For medical advice, please contact your doctor or other licensed healthcare professional.