S6E23 Ask Jack- Fermented foods

Jack McNulty  00:00 

You know, it’s a fascinating world. I was just in Provence a few weeks ago, and we walked into this, this small town bakery, and this single baker was there, and he had the whole town. He had basically had a monopoly, and he made his own ferment. So he only baked maybe about six or seven different kinds of bread, and he had several different kinds of wild ferments in there. And he was so passionate about his whole process that we walked in there and showed a little bit of interest. He just was, you know, suddenly we had these buckets of wild yeast. 

 

Overcoming MS  00:41 

Welcome to Living well with MS. This show comes to you from Overcoming MS, the world’s leading multiple sclerosis healthy lifestyle charity which helps people live a full and healthy life through the Overcoming MS program. We interview a range of experts and people with multiple sclerosis. Please remember all opinions expressed are their own. Help others discover living well with MS. If you enjoy the show, please rate and review us wherever you listen to podcasts. And now let’s meet our guest. 

 

Geoff Allix  01:17 

Welcome to the latest edition of the Living Well with MS podcast. And today, I’m glad to welcome back Jack McNulty, our resident chef. So welcome back, Jack. 

 

Jack McNulty  01:27 

Thanks, Geoff. It’s good to see you again. It’s been a while since we’ve done one of these, so I’m really looking forward to chat about some interesting food topics. 

 

Geoff Allix  01:36 

Today’s food topic is fermentation. So firstly, could you tell us what it is and how it might fit in with the Overcoming MS diet? 

 

Jack McNulty  01:47 

Yeah, we’re choosing sort of a light topic, kind of, there’s not really much to fermentation. It’s only been going on for centuries and centuries. So basically, the idea of fermentation is just, it’s a natural process of using bacterias and yeast to sort of break down sugars and starches and vegetables or the food that helps preserve that food. But it has some other aspects of it, which makes it very interesting from a culinary perspective. So it’s going to change flavor profile, and it increases and offers some some new nutritional benefit, which is obviously something of interest to those of us that are following the OMS diet. And I think, you know, nutritionally, I don’t want to go down that, that rabbit hole too much. There’s a lot of information on the OMS website, I’m assuming, as well as just doing some internet searches in terms of the probiotics, antioxidants, all of those sorts of wonderful benefits that come from eating or consuming fermented foods and drinks. From my perspective as a cook, there’s just so much interesting aspects to what fermented foods can bring. And, you know, people always like, Oh, it’s so boring to eat a plant based diet and all those foods, or, you know, they just taste really bland and whatnot. And that’s true, you know. But as you evolve in that sort of sphere or world, you start to realize there’s so many interesting things that you can do to sort of pump up the food a little bit, and using fermented foods is one way to do it. I mean, it’s going to give you a lot more that savoriness, that umami that we all sort of crave, that that fifth sort of taste that that’s been around for a while, it’s going to change texture. It’s going to add acid, which is really important for like, you know, fatty or carbohydrate rich foods, to provide a little bit of balance. It’s going to offer a lot in terms of doing regional type foods. So for instance, if you want to make something Japanese or or Moroccan or or any of those sorts of things that just adds that little element that perhaps a lot of people miss, and it just sort of closes the book on that particular recipe that makes it really enticing. 

 

Geoff Allix  04:17 

If you’re coming to this from someone who’s completely new. What do you need? What’s the most straightforward way to begin?  

 

Jack McNulty  04:26 

I think it’s really important first of all, to understand that it’s an art as well as a technique. So you doing something fermented, leaves a lot of open space. It’s a canvas, an open canvas for an artist. You know, you can do a lot and create a lot when you start going down that path of fermentation. So if you’re just starting out, personally, I would recommend starting out with something very simple, and it’s easy to find simple recipes on the website or any website. Right? Or just by doing some simple research, sauerkraut is or kimchi, things like this are just so simple to do. Sauerkraut, basically is just going to be chopping up cabbage, giving it a little massage with your hands, adding a bit of to release the water, and then adding a bit of salt to that, and keeping it submerged, and then just letting nature do the rest for, you know, waiting one to two weeks or so and keeping an eye on the process. That’s really all that’s involved. It couldn’t be much more simple than that. Kimchi is, in essence, really the same thing. You’re going to add some other flavor elements, and the process only takes one to three days or something of this nature. It’s really a quicker way to do kind of a fermented food, doing something like a batch that I continue to have going, or have going currently, and I started those like in July or something. I use preserved lemons and everything. It doesn’t have to be Moroccan, but it gives you that little special bit of flavor burst. And so to get started with something like that, it’s really you need a glass jar. You need some kind of or fermentation crock, or ceramic crock, or something like that. You need something that’s going to create a way to create to keep the vegetables submerged. That’s really important, because it needs to be in an anaerobic environment without oxygen reaching the food. If it does reach the food, then you’re going to have problems with mold development, things like that, which will ruin everything. You know, a lot of times you’re going to need something after it’s done, to create that air lock or to seal it using non reactive tools, really simple wood or silicon works, works fine, and often like a scale or a thermometer. And you know, from there, it’s really just getting started and choosing something really, really simple to start off the process, because it’s, you know, it’s sort of like going to school and kind of like doing those first little scientific experiments. Let’s see what happens when we, you know, cut up some lemons, put some salt in it, and then watch it sort of ferment, watch the process happen over a few days, turning cloudy, and then, you know, starting to see bubbles sort of react. And then managing the whole process over a period of of anywhere from a week to to a month, at just room temperature, and seeing how everything changes. You know, checking it every day, checking the smell, taking a little taste of the liquid that’s in there, and, you know, really having fun with it brings a lot of excitement to the food you’re making. You know it’s, yeah, of course, it’s going to take a while, and patience are are key. But it can’t be more more simple, but also more entertaining. You know, I think it’s just really that that way, that’s the way to get started, in my opinion. 

 

Geoff Allix  08:07 

And if it went wrong, yeah, because, I mean, we’re talking about, like, food that we’re not eating for two weeks, three weeks, four weeks. 

 

Jack McNulty  08:20 

You’re intentionally using bacteria. Yes, you know. So, yeah, you do have to be a little bit careful. And certainly that’s always going to be a concern, and it’s something you need to keep an eye on while you’re while the process is going on. So if it does tend to go bad, your nose will be your biggest judge as to whether that’s off or not. And generally, if it smells bad, really bad, you don’t consume it. You throw it away. And if mold starts to develop on the top, you just know, okay, that batch went wrong, and you throw it away. And everybody that does is starts off in fermentation is going to have, eventually a batch that’s going to go off. You know, that’s just part of what what happens in in the fermentation game. And when it does, you’ll know, really fast, oh, that didn’t work, because it’s not going to be sour, it’s going to have something that’s, well, it’s, quite frankly, going to smell of death, you know? And so you don’t necessarily really want to put something like that in your in your mouth. 

 

Geoff Allix  09:35 

So for me, I think the key was, what you said about the keeping it underwater. Yeah, so that. So I make, I make a few different things, but if I’m making sauerkraut, then I have a reasonably large bowl, and then I put a plate that’s smaller than the diameter of the bowl, or firstly, I said it’s got the water. Then I put cling form over it, then I put a plate on it. And then I have a Kilner jar that ultimately it will be stored in, yeah, but temporarily I just felt that was water, and then it just pushes the plate down. And as long as everything’s underwater, then I’ve never had that sort of problem. 

 

Jack McNulty  10:13 

That’s right, and that’s one of the most basic key elements in lacto fermentation, is keep everything submerged. Recommended to me one time. It was really a cool idea. You see it in recipes, you know, get a weight to weigh it down, and, you know, a rock or something like this is what you often see in recipes. But I came across an idea one time that stuck with me. This was years ago, and I’ve used it ever since. So I just take, like, a normal Ziploc freezer bag, and I just pop it over the top of the jar, and then just fill it with water. And the water acts as the weight and keeps everything submerged, okay, fills in all of the gaps. So it’s, it couldn’t be any easier to use a weight than something like that, and then it’s, you know, it’s really simple to just change that or take it off and then refill it and keep everything submerged. I think that was probably the biggest game changer for me, because I was always struggling with now, what kind of weight am I going to fit into this opening here that’s going to keep everything down and then invariably, something would come up on the sides, you know, of whatever you’re using, and, and, yeah, it was always a bit of a hassle, but the water works great. It really spreads out and keeps everything nicely submerged. 

 

Geoff Allix  11:33 

A lot of people will be familiar with fermented foods from a dairy point of view. So I think probably one of the most popular has to be yogurt. But equally, kefir is is traditionally made with with milk. So can you make these OMS friendly? 

 

Jack McNulty  11:51 

So yogurt. Yogurt is basically going to be just you can make it with any sort of plant based milk. I find that the best ones are the ones that tend to be the highest in fat contents of soya works. I find the best in terms of making a nice, creamy yogurt. You see all the time that if you go out and shop that people are using coconut a lot. I don’t really find that it’s necessary to go down that route. Soya works perfectly fine. A nice, thick oat milk will also work. And basically what you need is just a some sort of plant based yogurt starter. And those are pretty simple to find these days. In any health food store online, you can get get something like that. And so the process, if you’re making yogurt at home, if you want to do that, and a lot of people end up doing that about once or twice, and then they realize they can just go buy it really. But it is fun to make yourself. And basically you want to heat the the plant based milk up to a certain temperature, I think is around 180 degrees Fahrenheit, which is about 82 degrees centigrade, and then you cool it down to around 110 Fahrenheit, or 43 centigrade. And once it’s cooled, then you add your starter to that, mix it together, and then you have to incubate it. And that’s where a lot of people have the issue is keeping that constant temperature of between 38 and 40 degrees centigrade, something in that nature, for six to 12 hours. How do you do that? Some people wrap it in a warm towel, but mostly the best way to do it is you have some sort of yogurt incubator, which is, if you’re going to make a lot of yogurt, that’s a worthwhile investment, and that will keep that constant temperature and that then it’s done. And, you know, you take a little of that yogurt that you just made, use it to start the next batch and enjoy what you just made. 

 

Geoff Allix  13:59 

So, I mean, I remember as a child, we used to do it with with milk yogurt, and we had a yogurt maker, yeah. And so it’s really straightforward, because it did all the time, so the temperature is the same, so you could still use exactly the same equipment. 

 

Jack McNulty  14:14 

 Exactly. And that’s why I think soya milk works the best, because soya milk without any additives, and unsweetened soy milk is what I’m talking about here. Is going to have almost the same, the same characteristics as normal cow’s milk, and so that’s why it functions really well in the yogurt environment. 

 

Geoff Allix  14:39 

You could buy a store bought soya yogurt as your starter. 

 

Jack McNulty  14:46 

Exactly. You can do that easily. You’d need a little bit more, because those are going to be pasteurized, so it depends on how much of the living elements are still in that. But you can do that for sure, but you can also easily find yogurt starters anymore, plant based yogurt starters. 

 

Geoff Allix  15:08 

But like you say, it will never be economic to do this, because by the time you buy the equipment. 

 

Jack McNulty  15:13 

Exactly, it’s one of those things that’s more fun than anything else. I know we’ll probably talk about sourdough bread in a bit, but you know, it was the it was that craze of sourdough that overtook everybody at the beginning of the should I say the covid years? 

 

Geoff Allix  15:28 

It wasn’t everyone. 

 

Jack McNulty  15:29 

Covid knocked down everybody. It’s like, oh, crazy. I have to make my own bread. So why not make sourdough? Great. Everybody did it. Then they realized, Oh, you got to keep it alive. Nobody wanted to take care of it anymore. And then you had the next pandemic of dying sourdough cultures around the world, and everybody just realized you can just go buy it much easier.  

 

Geoff Allix  15:52 

How about kefir? So kefir is normally a milk based product. 

 

Jack McNulty  15:56 

Yeah, do you make it? Do you make kefir? 

 

Geoff Allix  15:59 

We do. So I do know the answer to my question, actually, because there is also available as Water Kefir. 

 

Jack McNulty  16:04 

Yeah, exactly. For those that aren’t familiar, kefir is sort of an interesting process to make, so it’s they call it kefir grains, but it’s really not a grain at all. It’s more of like a little gelatinous kind of bead, if you will. And it’s basically just a symbiotic combination of yeast and bacteria, much the same that would be used in making kombucha, for instance, and they’re just little beads that are going to feed off sugar. So basically, you’re going to sweeten the water that’s going to feed off that, and then you drink it basically, but it’s not going to have the same sort of tangy, acidic note that, like a kombucha would have. 

 

Geoff Allix  16:49 

We have both in our house. So it is, yes, a different flavor. So I think people prefer one or the other. 

 

Jack McNulty  16:55 

Exactly, exactly, and they also have quite good health properties to a, you know, and from a probiotic standpoint, and that sort of stuff. 

 

Geoff Allix  17:04 

And I think with those with so, with kefir and kombucha, I’d say that the flavor actually is coming from you do it like a second ferment, so you have your fermenter, and then you can add fruit to it, which gives it the flavor. You have somewhat of a flavor. I mean, kombucha sort of tea based, isn’t it? I guess, I guess you could make kombucha with water. It wouldn’t it would work, wouldn’t it? But, but the flavors coming from the things you add to it, so then you try out different things we’re talking earlier, like ginger and lemon, works quite well. 

 

Jack McNulty  17:35 

Just out of curiosity, because this is a question that always comes up with someone that’s just getting started on on Kefir or even kombuchas. Because they they multiply. So those little, those little kefir grains will multiply with every time you make it. And then you’re, you’re left with, suddenly, more than you could possibly use. So what do you use them for? 

 

Geoff Allix  17:58 

We don’t use them for anything. We don’t. We haven’t. We don’t know of a good use of them. They go into the green waste. 

 

Jack McNulty  18:08 

 I know a lot of people did this. I did this when I was making a lot of kombucha. Is there’s a lot, lot of local communities of makers of kombucha or Kefir that share their multiplied grains, or in the case of kombucha, it’s called the scoby, which is a round disc like thing.  

 

Geoff Allix  18:28 

I have given scobies away to people. Yeah, my wife found a thing online that said you could make a snack from them by grilling them. Don’t try it. I don’t know where she found this. It was hideous. It was like greasy leather. 

 

Jack McNulty  18:45 

So Kombucha is basically what we’re talking about, for those that don’t know, is Kombucha is made with with brewed green or black tea that’s been sweetened usually a little bit of older kombucha or even distilled white vinegar is added to it, and then what’s called a SCOBY is added. Yeah, it feels a little bit like plastic in a way, and it’s a disc sort of shape. And with each round that you make of kombucha, a new layer develops. And so over time, it goes from about that thick to about that thick to about that thick, and it just keeps getting bigger and bigger. Then you can peel off the layers, which are sort of interesting, so that it takes the process takes about it depends on the temperature, but anywhere from three to seven days until it becomes really sort of tangy and bubbly and whatnot. And kefir is basically going to be the same process, but the little beads are different than the scoby that’s used for kombucha, so you’re going to be still left with more kefir grains when you started the process. 

 

Geoff Allix  19:59 

And yeah. Thing, I’d say, actually, from our experience of it, is that the second fermentation you normally do in a sealed bottle, yes, and then it gives it a bit of a fizz, you need to release the pressure at least, every day, exactly. 

 

Jack McNulty  20:15 

And the process of using a glass container in that, because they will create a lot of pressure. 

 

Geoff Allix  20:22 

I mean, we do use a glass I mean, but you glass containers will take, you know, champagne is pretty highly pressured.  

 

Jack McNulty  20:29 

If you forget about it in the refrigerator, yes, you have a mess to clean up. 

 

Geoff Allix  20:33 

And you mentioned sourdough. So sourdough that’s fermented, is it? 

 

Jack McNulty  20:41 

You mean the sourdough bread? Yeah, yeah. So the main difference between, like sourdough bread and commercial bread is going to be in the leavening agent, and so sourdough is typically made with what’s called a fermented culture of wild yeast and bacteria. So it’s, it’s basically going to take the yeast from that’s all around us all the time, and you’re creating a culture, and there’s a process of making that culture, which we can discuss in a minute, if you’d like. So you go through that, it takes, usually around a week to get a sourdough starter going, and once you get it, that’s sort of your wild yeast, which is a combination of wild yeast and the bacteria, and so you’re using that to ferment the bread, to actually give the leavening in the bread. So the fermentation generally takes longer than using commercial yeast, something you would buy in a store, the flavor is going to be much different. So it’s going to have a sort of that acidic quality, whereas commercial bread is just going to taste doughy, the texture is different for the crust usually on sourdough bread is going to be a little bit crustier, and the dough inside will be a little bit chewier. The shelf life will be much longer than than traditional store bought bread. And of course, there’s some benefit nutritionally, because of the process of the fermentation, it sort of breaks down some of the gluten a little bit, so it’s going to be easier to digest for most people, not necessarily for people that are going to be intolerant to gluten, but for some people that may be on the edge, sourdough would be definitely easier to to digest than than something commercially just, you know, and that’s it’s a fascinating world. And I was just in Provence a few weeks ago, and we walked into this small town bakery, and this single baker was there, and he had the whole town. He had basically a monopoly, and he made his own ferment. So he only baked maybe about six or seven different kinds of bread, and he had several different kinds of wild ferments in there. And he was so passionate about his whole process that we walked in there and showed a little bit of interest. He just was, you know, suddenly we had these buckets of wild yeast thrust in front of our face to go smell this and smell that and and just so pleased with and passionate about making the bread a specific way and having it taste a specific way. And it was incredible. It was just an incredible experience and a taste sensation. And it really did last it, we bought probably more than we needed to. And so, you know, maybe it was 10 days later and it was still fine. They hadn’t gone really dry and hard like a lot of commercial bread would at that point. Now, it was unbelievable. 

 

Geoff Allix  23:53 

It’s really great having freshly made nice bread, yeah, but you are committing to doing it quite regularly, because I think it was, you’re basically adding flour, adding water, taking out starter, making bread. You’re making bread every other day, probably at minimum. I’d say you probably need to kind of commit to. 

 

Jack McNulty  24:15 

For those that don’t know. I’ll just run down the process. We can include this in the show notes also. But if you wanted to make your own starter, it’s basically just taking about 50 grams of whole wheat flour, mixing it with 50 grams of water, or 50 milliliter of water, and just putting it in clean jar and mixing it so and then letting it stay. You know, you put a cloth over the top of it. There’s no need to seal it and and you just let it sit at room temperature for 24 hours. So the next day, you have to take half of that mixture and get rid of it. So discard it. You hear about sourdough discard all the time. So you’re taking that and then you take another 50 grams of flour. You can use all purpose flour. Or at this point, mixing it again with with equal amount of water, and then mixing that into the remaining bit that you had going. And then you let that go 24 hours, and you repeat that process for about five to seven days, until you start to see it kind of rising up in the container. And then you can definitely smell the acidic quality to it. So then you’re left with a sort of child that you have to take care of now, because they will die if you don’t pay attention to them, and they need to be regularly fed. So you can discard all but about 50 grams of your starter, which means you use that bit to make a bread. That’s your leavening for the bread. And you’re, you have 50 grams of your starter, and then you go to that process again, of 50 grams flour, 50 grams water, and adding that back in. And then that’s your feeding. And so that needs to be done on a regular basis. So you’re right. You’re either going to be baking bread regularly, like every day, or you’re going to be discarding a lot of dough on a regular basis to keep it well fed. Now you can refrigerate it, in which case you only need to feed it about once a week instead of every day, as long as, you know, you bring it to room temperature, give it a good feeding, you know, let it come up a little bit, and then pop it back in the refrigerator. 

 

Geoff Allix  26:31 

Now, ours did survive a two week holiday, actually, 

 

Jack McNulty  26:35 

you can do that. You can even freeze them. There’s a way to do that if you’re gone for an extended period of time, but it’s challenging to bring that back to life, as you can imagine. This is the fun part of food, isn’t it? I mean, it’s when you start experimenting a little bit like this, and you start getting into it. I mean, I don’t make my own sourdough bread every day, you know, I’ll do a starter and keep it going for a bit, but, you know, I run out of patience, just like everybody else. But it is really cool to get into that and start figuring things out and playing with different proportions and, you know, adding a little rye flour in there to give it a little bit of a different flavor instead, you know, and you can, you can play around in that particular arena and just create different things. It’s, it’s fantastic. It brings a lot of joy to food.  

 

Geoff Allix  26:47 

And the only other thing I would say that that we did the jar that we had it in, using a dry, white marker to mark how high up it was, and then you can see it growing exactly like you’re not just imagining it. You can see, all right, it was there, all right, it’s gone up. And then we kind of knew, like, okay, that’s the fifth, that’s our, sort of, how much we take out level, yeah, and that’s where we want it to be. And also, when we started it, I had a tip, if you add some organic green grapes, yeah, just sliced in half. Add that to the it. I guess they have the yeast on them. 

 

Jack McNulty  28:08 

You can do it with, actually, any fruit you can use, like an apple or something like that, and just pop it in at the beginning. It sort of kick starts the yeast process, the yeast and bacteria. Just remember to take it out. 

 

Geoff Allix  28:23 

Okay, so some other techniques as well, which people might not be aware of fermentation. Pickling would be a big one.  

 

Jack McNulty  28:34 

The biggest difference between a lot of people confuse the two and what’s the difference between pickling and fermentation. So there is a  major difference. Both of them are going to preserve the food, but then the nutritional aspect afterwards is much different. So fermentation, when we’re talking about fermentation, in this particular case, we’re talking about what’s called lacto fermentation. So it’s basically going to be adding, submerging the vegetables in a brine of salt, salt water or salt in the juices from the vegetable. It’s going to be in an anaerobic environment, and it’s going to be allowed to have the bacteria ferment the vegetables, and that’s what’s going to create that sort of lactic acid. That’s why it’s called lacto fermentation has nothing to do with lactose. It’s just the terminology that’s going to preserve. It’s going to create probiotics, different flavors, that sort of thing, unlock different flavors as well. Pickling is different in the sense that it’s going to be primarily in an acid solution, so typically vinegar, so you’re going to preserve the food in that generally it’s not going to be allowed to have any bacterial growth. So the bacteria is not allowed in pickling, whereas it is in fermentation. It’s a faster process, but generally it needs to be heated as well, and then it produces that sort of sour, tangy kind of aspect. So you can do quick pickling as well. That’s often done. I do it a lot with onions, slice onion, add a little vinegar. You can add a sweetening agent to it, I like adding a little bit of chili into it as well, kind of in salt and then massaging it all together and letting it sit for a half hour. And then you have basically a very fast pickled onion that you can use in a salad, or however you want to use it. 

 

Geoff Allix  30:37 

But then that doesn’t have the probiotic benefits of fermenting. 

 

Jack McNulty  30:42 

It’s going to have a nice flavor, and you can keep it a little bit longer, but it’s not going to be nutritionally the same as you as doing something that’s going to be fermented. And that has it has to do with the bacteria, and that’s really the primary difference. 

 

Geoff Allix  30:58 

So there was one thing was mentioned. We had Michael Greger on an episode, which was he was saying, you’ve got to watch out for the salt content, because, as you mentioned, things like sauerkraut kimchi that they have salts used as part of that brine. So is that a concern? 

 

Jack McNulty  31:17 

Well, it would be a concern if you put in too much salt. You know, that’s my view on that. I understand what he’s saying. And I think that if you you, if you’re eating, you know, large quantities of sauerkraut or kimchi, or large quantities even of something like miso or using soy sauce, a lot, you’re going to want, you know, there is a lot of a lot of sodium in there, and so, you know that is going to be a concern. It might even be more of a concern with people that are on medication also. So that’s a good reason to, you know, discuss that with a with a health professional. That’s certainly nothing I’m going to be aware of other than I would ask that question if, I wanted to consume a lot of those products, for me, I think getting the salt right is, is the the main thing. So if you’re making sauerkraut, the process of making sauerkraut is really simple. So you’re slicing up the cabbage, you’re adding a little bit of salt, you’re massaging it, releasing the water, and then you’re letting it ferment. But the salt amount is what’s critical. And recipes are going are there for a reason. So generally, you’re only going to be using a very small amount, you know, something like a 1% or something like that salt solution one to 2% it varies depending on what you’re trying to do is how much salt you’re actually using, but you don’t need a huge amount to allow that fermentation process to occur. So, yeah, there’s going to be salt in it. That sodium is not going to disappear during the fermentation process. You know. And I will leave it sort of at that. I, for me, I have no qualms about eating sauerkraut during the cold season, you know, once or twice a week, or whatever, or kimchi and that sort of thing. I’m not that concerned about it. But for someone that’s maybe interested in watching their sodium consumption for whatever reason, that would be something to look at. 

 

Geoff Allix  33:29 

That was part of a balanced diet when you only got some other food, yeah. Okay,and so you’ve mentioned a little bit with you mentioned miso and so, I’m guessing most people are not going to make their own miso or soy sauce, but something that came up was koji. So what is what is koji? 

 

Jack McNulty  33:52 

That’s another way to ferment. So koji is basically a cultured mold. And so that mold is going to be applied to something like a grain, rice or barley, typically, or soya. And the enzymes in that mold are going to break down the proteins and the fats, and that makes it basically a catalyst for fermentation. It speeds up the process and opens up different flavor combinations, or different flavors that might be in that soybean, right? And so through that process of the enzymes mixing, it’s going to release different things, and that’s why you’re going to have different flavors. So let’s take miso, for instance. So miso is basically you’re going to have the koji mixed with cooked soy beans, I think they’re cooked, and that process then is going to get mixed together and and that paste that’s going to result is allowed to ferment for a very long period of time, it can be anywhere from a year to 30 years. I mean, they can let it go really a long time to change the complexity of the flavor. And some really old miso that’s been produced in a certain particular way is going to be extremely dark, and it’s going to have a flavor that’s that there’s no other way to describe it other than it tastes very meaty. It tastes very much like eating a piece of meat, and when it’s not at all. And that’s what that sort of process is going to do. So Koji, there’s a lot of interesting things that you can do with koji. It’s not the thing that you’re going to necessarily. You can make it at home, but generally, it’s better to just find a source and purchase it. And so there are some interesting things you can you can do with it. You can make quick ferments, you know, with vegetables, overnight, you know, in a grain or something. And you can basically ferment a carrot or a cucumber overnight in koji and it will be a very interesting texture the next day and flavor. But, you know, you can make a particular kind of drink called amazaki, you know, just different things like this that you can do with koji. It’s just a different way to to begin the fermentation and from those things.  

 

Geoff Allix  36:28 

So those soy based products and miso and soy sauce, and I’m guessing it’s gonna give me a sort of Japanese flavor? They say they sound like quite oriental. 

 

Jack McNulty  36:47 

Exactly. And I think that that’s another benefit, you know, of using these kinds of fermented foods, because I, for instance, I use miso quite often. It’s, it’s kind of the darling in cooking these days. You see it a lot on cooking shows and people doing miso glaze this or that. But miso is very useful in terms of and there are, of course, different kinds of miso, but in terms of adding that sort of umami aspect to food. So for instance, I make these Japanese sort of potatoes that are long cooked, boiled potatoes that have been sort of braised in this miso mix, and they’re just sort of a really rich, golden, dark color that hasn’t a very fantastic flavor because of the miso that’s in it. And I think that that’s the kind of thing that you can do to add a different element to just something so simple, like boiled potato, something 

 

Geoff Allix  37:46 

that’s really popular at the moment is apple cider vinegar. Yeah, certainly there are health benefits. So can you make that yourself?  

 

Jack McNulty  37:56 

You can. It’s really simple to do. You can just get some apples, chop them into some pieces, put the pieces in a large container and cover it with water. Basically, you’re going to add sugar to get that fermentation process going, and then you’re going to cover it with a cloth and basically let it sit for two to three weeks, you know, keep the bugs away. You stir it, you know, fairly often. You strain out the the apple pieces, and then you take that liquid and let it ferment an additional two to three weeks. And then that will create what’s called the the mother eventually, and that that creates the acidic acid with the thyme that fermentation process, and that’s what’s going to give it that sort of vinegar flavor. So it is really simple to do, and you can do that really with almost any fruit. You know, you can make blackberry vinegar if you want, using kind of the same process. So it’s just allowing that those natural yeast and bacteria to work on the sugar which you’re going to add to it, and allow that fermentation to occur, strain it out, and let the liquid continue to ferment for a period of time. You should give it a go. 

 

Geoff Allix  39:16 

I was going to say, so there’s two questions. Firstly, if people wanted to give it a go, and they’ve heard about all these things, you could make kimchi, kombucha, sauerkraut, vinegar, what’s, what’s the easiest one to start with? 

 

Jack McNulty  39:33 

Well, sauerkraut is going to be the easiest. I mean, any of the kombucha will be also simple to start, although you’ll need to get with the scoby from somewhere. Kefir is the same thing. You just need to get the kefir grains to get it going. But if you wanted to do just a simple fermentation, certainly preserved lemons, which is just basically fermented lemons, it’s just salt. Lemons and lemon juice, and then, you know, you don’t want to cover it with the lid for the first week or so. You want to just use a cloth and allow that fermentation to occur just with a cloth, because you want the outside yeast and bacteria to come in. You don’t want to close that out, but you got to make sure you keep everything submerged, doing something with cucumbers and just making your own salt fermented pickles. It’s something I do every year when we get them, you know, you can do them with the small ones, and it’s basically exactly the same process as making preserved lemons. It’s just in a water and salt brine, and just allowing those cucumbers to sit in there and ferment at around 21 degrees centigrade, you know, for about a week, a week to two weeks, depending on on the conditions of everything that’s around, but it’s, it’s really simple to do, and watch as you go, and then you’ll be amazed at how they taste. And it’s kind of a fun process to manage. 

 

Geoff Allix  41:12 

Okay, and just finally, so I think you’ve given people a good hopefully you’ve inspired some people just to get started, but it’s a good tips. But is there anything else you’d like to share with our listeners about fermented foods? 

 

Jack McNulty  41:27 

Fermentation is an art and a science. It’s, you know, it’s an opportunity to experiment and to explore different things that you can do with food. And the idea is, just have a little bit of fun with it, and hopefully be comfortable enough to say I’m producing something that’s really good for me, you know, and this is actually going to to benefit me. It’s going to benefit my microbiome, it’s going to benefit my life by doing this. And it’s fun, and I think it’s a process that can be just really enjoyable, especially if there are kids in the household. Because anything with, you know, playing with food, and what’s going on with food, kids are just kind of like drawn to it like a magnet. They get really interested in that sort of thing. It’s like a science experiment at home. But just be cautious of keeping things, you know, submerged, keeping an eye out for mold development, those sorts of things. And you know, it’s better to err on the side of safety. And if you’re not 100% convinced that something is going to be safe to eat, then just don’t eat it. Just start over. 

 

Geoff Allix  42:38 

Okay, and with that thank you very much for joining us again. 

 

Jack McNulty  42:42 

It was great talking with you, Geoff and catching up. And again, we’ll put all of this out on the show notes. I know in my newsletter, for those that don’t know, I write a newsletter called Vegan Weekly that I publish on Substack, and I will be writing a lot about fermentation in the coming weeks. So that’s a good place to turn also, if you need some additional ideas and tips. 

 

Overcoming MS  43:07 

Thank you for listening to this episode of Living Well with MS. Please check out this episode’s show notes at overcomingms.org/podcast you’ll find useful links and bonus information there. Don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast so you never miss an episode, and please rate and review the show to help others find us. This show is made possible by the Overcoming MS community. Our theme music is by Claire and Nev Dean. Our host is Geoff Allix. Our videos are edited by Lorna Greenwood and I’m the producer Regina Beach, have questions or ideas to share? Email us at podcast, at overcoming ms.org, we’d love to hear from you. The Living Well with MS Podcast is for private, non commercial use, and exists to educate and inspire our community of listeners. We do not offer medical advice. For medical advice, please contact your doctor or other licensed healthcare professional.