S7E08 Open Communication about MS with Program Facilitator Hayley Baker

Hayley Baker  00:00

So I would recommend that if you can, write things down, even if you’re going to the doctors with a problem, write it down before you go, and then you can just show them the piece of paper, because it might be difficult to verbalize those things. But if you write it down, I think sometimes that actually helps us internally. And if you did it in a diary, then you know, a year later, you can possibly look at your diary notes and see where you’ve come and how you’ve survived or what you’ve gone through.

 

Overcoming MS  00:34

Welcome to Living well with MS. This show comes to you from Overcoming MS, the world’s leading multiple sclerosis healthy lifestyle charity which helps people live a full and healthy life through the Overcoming MS program. We interview a range of experts and people with multiple sclerosis. Please remember all opinions expressed are their own. Don’t forget to subscribe to Living Well with MS on your favorite podcast platform so you never miss an episode. And now let’s meet our guest.

 

Geoff Allix  01:09

Welcome to the latest edition of the Living Well with MS podcast. On this edition, I’m joined by Hayley Baker. Hayley is a trainee Overcoming MS facilitator and is based in the UK. So to start off with, welcome Hayley and thank you. Could you introduce yourself and tell us a bit about your MS journey and also how you found out about Overcoming MS?

 

Hayley Baker  01:32

my name is Hayley. As you’ve said, I’m a program lead for a level two program in art and design at a local further education college. I’m also safeguarding lead within my department. When I was pregnant with my daughter, shortly after, in 2014 I started having problems with my bladder and my bowel. I was denying it slightly. I thought that it was just due to a tricky labor, and so I sort of ignored it. And then by about 2016 I went to the doctors, and I said, You know what was going on? And so she sent me to a urogynecology team at my local hospital. They said to me that they knew exactly what was going wrong and how they could help me resolve it, and I was really excited that they were going to possibly give me a tablet, and everything was going to be fine. And so I sat in the doctor’s surgery in the room, and the lady was telling me what, we could give you a permanent catheter, and that was like the worst case scenario. And then I was waiting for the next one, and she said we could give you an intermittent catheter. And so I sat there and waited for the next one, which would be that magic pill, which would make everything better. And she stopped, and I was so shocked. It was unbelievable. The idea of me at the age of 41 or 42 having to use an intermittent catheter about three to four times a day was was really tough. And so luckily, my friend was with me, and so I went back to her house and cried for the entire day with her. And then I think it was about two years later, I went back to the urogynecology team, and I said, I think I’m ready now. Can you tell me what to do and help me? And so I started using a catheter for my bladder, and that helped a lot, because I certainly stopped having accidents when I was out, and it was much easier to manage. So they wanted to insert a sacral neuro modulation device, which is like a little electrical wire that runs down my sacral nerve, and there’s a battery which is inserted in my buttock or my lower back, and so that sends an electrical signal between my brain and my bladder, and as I always say, reignites the messages, which seems to help. But in terms of getting them to insert it, they wanted to rule anything out. So they said, oh, we’ll send you for an MRI just to rule anything out. And I had absolutely no idea what was going on. I thought it was just like they said, ruling things out. And so I went away, had my MRI, and then I got a letter through the post. I didn’t get an appointment at that point. I just got a letter through the post saying that had white lesions on my brain and my spinal cord. And so I ignored the letter a little bit.

 

Geoff Allix  04:50

So to get it by post.

 

Hayley Baker  04:51

Yeah, it was, it was odd. So I ignored it. And. And carried on at work, got home, fed the children, put them to bed, and then about two o’clock in the morning, I got out of bed and I started Googling white lesions on your spine and your brain, and MS was one of the things that came up. So sort of went back to bed and laid in bed, and then woke my husband up and I said, I think I might have MS. And, yeah, that was it. So. So then I did see the neurologist, and they confirmed that they thought it was MS, but they didn’t know what type of MS they were talking about, benign MS that relapsing remitting. They didn’t talk about primary, progressive or secondary. I had a lovely, lovely conversation with the MS nurse. So I spoke with the neurologist, and he told me this, and then they took me into another room with the MS nurse, and she was amazing, and she just talked me through everything. And she was saying, you know, there’s lots of medication that you could be looking at, she said, but you don’t sort of qualify for that now, so I’m not going to go through all the details. So it was quite nice. So they were just giving me little bits of information. I think it was quite good that, you know, as and when they felt it necessary for me to know, she did say that there’s a book called Overcoming MS. And she said it does go on a little bit about, a bit too much about the diet, but she said, you might find it useful. And I did actually know somebody that had MS. Obviously, I haven’t said about my dad having MS. So my dad was diagnosed about 45 years ago, so I’ve lived with MS for quite a long time, but not Overcoming MS, my dad didn’t tap into that at all. No, no. And so I, because I knew about Overcoming MS through another friend, I decided to go online, and she said to me, or you can go online and you can order the book. So I ordered the book, and then it I arrived, and I threw it into the back of the wardrobe and shut the door. It was all wrapped up and its envelope still didn’t open it. And then I think it was a couple of years later, it was a bit of a slow burn for me, really. A couple of years later, I was on holiday, and a friend of mine was telling me about her friend that has MS, and that she’s made these big diet changes. And I thought, right, okay, this is time to start looking at it. And I’m not really a big reader. I think, because I’m a quite busy life, I don’t really have time to sit and read. It’s quite a big book, and and so I looked online and I found your podcasts. And so while I was on holiday, sort of plugged my headphones in and I was listening to your podcast, and they were just brilliant. That was how I read the book, really was through listening to your podcasts  A couple of things. Firstly, the original book, the same one that I got originally, there is now a much briefer one that the handbook, which is much, yeah, if you want all the evidence the original full Overcoming MS book, it has everything, all the scientific information in there. But the Handbook sort of just takes it down to the what you need to do, bite sized chunks.  I do have a copy of it now, straightforward, and I love all the stories from everybody in each chapter. That’s really good.

 

Geoff Allix  08:33

And I think the other thing about the podcast, if you search through there, there is some good episodes on all each of the pillars. So as you say, you say, you can actually get the information for each of the pillars. So you’re now a trainee facilitator for Overcoming MS, which I mentioned, could you describe what that is as a facilitator and how you’re finding it?

 

Hayley Baker  08:53

Well, I think to describe how I came to it in the first place, I think once I’d listened to your podcast and started getting a grip of Overcoming MS and changing my lifestyle, I decided to join my local Circle, and then I went to a pop up in Guildford that same year and met some of the people from my circle there, and had Sam Josephs was giving a talk on diet, and there are other people talking about their own journeys, which was brilliant and and then I ended up going to the retreat in 2024 which was amazing, absolutely loved. That was completely immersed in Overcoming MS. And met some amazing facilitators, so supportive. Met lots of lovely people just being immersed in a room with 40 other people that have MS was just amazing. And I sort of came out of the retreat feeling alive and invigorated. And I think because I’m a teacher myself, and I absolutely love looking after and caring for people and helping. People. I think it was the sort of natural step for me, because whilst I was at the retreat, I really enjoyed sharing my stories, and I could see that people were responding to them and opening up with their stories. And so I just felt that being a facilitator was the next step, really.

 

Geoff Allix  10:18

And so you’ve sort of touched on Overcoming MS, but as as a facilitator, could you give us a quick rundown of the pillars of the Overcoming MS program for people who are new to it.

 

Hayley Baker  10:30

So to list the pillars, is one of them is diet which is a low saturated fat diet. I think they recommend less than 16 grams a day, if possible, some recommend less than 20. Eating fish. If you are happy to eat fish, that’s quite good because it’s high in Omega three. I take linseed oil, flax seed oil to supplement my Omiga intake, vitamin D. We all need lots of vitamin D. There’s lots of information out there about vitamin D and the levels and how to test to maintain good vitamin D levels. I think I heard on one of the podcasts that a lot of people that are first newly diagnosed with MS tend to have a Vitamin D deficiency. Is that right Geoff?

 

Geoff Allix  11:25

They do tend to Yeah. They don’t know about cause and effect yet. They don’t know whether the vitamin D caused you to make it more like you get MS, or whether having MS causes you to have low vitamin D. And either way, we probably need to supplement our vitamin D because it’s low, yeah, because there’s a lot more it does as well. It’s good for you.

 

Hayley Baker  11:46

Physical activity is another one, stress management. I think the physical activity and the stress management actually sort of go hand in hand, and if you’re being physical, physically active, then it’s good for stress management as well. Sort of relieving tension

 

Geoff Allix  12:04

Depends on what sport you do.

 

Hayley Baker  12:08

Medication to take the medicines if they are necessary, which I think is a really good one. Family health is really important to me. My dad with MS and I’ve got two children. I think you were talking to me about your children and your family as well. So family health is a really important one. But for me, family health is not just about my family, because I’ve been working in the same institution for 20 years, so my colleagues are my family, and so it’s about communicating my needs and the Overcoming MS with them, which I think is as important as my my parents and my children. And then the one that really over arches everything for me is the change your life, for life, because I think if you can maintain those changes in diet, vitamin D, physical and stress management, medication and family health. If you if you can try and meet those needs, then you are changing your life for life. I know, when I first started Overcoming MS, it was like, right, okay, so I’m not going to eat meat, you know, you look at the basic things that you can change. I’m going to be doing some exercise. And it’s not like a fad, is it? It’s not, oh, I’m going to be doing that for the next six weeks. It’s like, this is my life. You know, it’s permanent.

 

Geoff Allix  13:33

Have you had people ask you how long you’re going to do it for? I’ve found that people say that. I say, forever.

 

Hayley Baker  13:44

And actually, if you put it in that way, it makes it sound like it’s, oh, the you know, but it’s not. It’s quite empowering, and I think it’s really good, positiveto change.

 

Geoff Allix  13:58

And did you find it straightforward to adopt all of the pillars, or were any of them slightly more challenging?

 

Hayley Baker  14:05

Some of them are more challenging. My husband says that I’m using just excuses, but I do have a busy life with two children, and I work full time, and obviously I’m trying to do the trainee facilitator now as well, and so I do find it difficult to carve out time to do meditation. That is my one for the stress management that I find difficult. It’s odd because I’ve been working in the same building for 20 years, and I go to the same spruce, which is next door at lunch time, to grab it. And I never knew that there’s a swimming pool above the Sainsbury’s. And so I’ve joined the gym now, and so literally, five minutes away from work, I actually told myself I’m going to have a lunch break, because I never have lunch breaks. I just eat at my computer and type at the same time. And so now I’ve I’ve got a membership with the local gym, and I go and I have a quick swim. I might do four lengths, I might do 10 links, and I try and do that three times a week, if I can. So that’s really good. And I think,

 

Geoff Allix  15:07

As you said, that you can combine some of the things. So actually, swimming is one for me, where actually it can be quite mindful, yeah? Activity, you can actually do mindfulness while swimming. You’re not playing football or something where you need to think about what’s going on with your teammates. You are literally yourself on your own thinking, yeah, so you can do that as a mindfulness factor.

 

Hayley Baker  15:32

It works in both ways, doesn’t it? Because I’m actually taking time out of my busy, stressful day to take that break. So yeah, it’s good.

 

Geoff Allix  15:39

And you’ve mentioned. So you’re a mum. You’ve had a father with MS, and then obviously you’ve got children as well. So it’s like, you know, similar situation. Father had MS, and then having children, you worry about about them, and they might worry about themselves. So how do you approach the Family Health pillar?

 

Hayley Baker  15:58

I think I started off by saying to them, particularly my son, he’s 19, and he looks exactly like me, and I look exactly like my dad. So in my head, I’m thinking, our genes are the same and so and he’s 19, so he’s looking at doing recreational things, obviously, smoking. We don’t want people to be smoking. It’s not good to smoke. It’s not so bad good to smoke anyway, is it? But particularly with their MS, so I haven’t told them that they need to be doing things, or I haven’t sort of changed things for them, obviously, their diet has changed a little bit because I’m the one doing the cooking. I mean, I love food, so embracing this new sort of diet for me, you know, changing what I’m eating has been really good, quite exciting, finding new recipes, but, but I do still cook meat for them, because I know that they still like meat. I do try and stick to chicken breast if I can. And I haven’t really told them to do certain things. I’ve just explained to them what I’m doing. So I’m sort of living by example. And you know, I’ve been on a big journey of coming to terms with my MS. I was started in 2014 It wasn’t until 2019 that I really started to come to terms with it and accept it myself. So, you know, it’s a journey for them. So they know what I’m doing. They’re aware of it. My daughter’s 10, and she goes around the supermarket and she said, Oh, are you allowed to eat that, Mum? And I say, well, it’s not that I’m not allowed. It’s that I should try and avoid it. So I’m trying to change her language with that. So, you know, in in a year’s time, in 10 years time, she may make choices for herself, but she has the knowledge, because I’m letting them know, giving them space.

 

Geoff Allix  17:57

You’ve been sort of open about bladder and bowel issues, and you talked about bladder symptoms and catheterization, but what about bowel urgency? Maybe even, less talked about than bladder urgency. Yeah, how are you with managing that symptom?

 

Hayley Baker  18:16

I mean, right early on, when I first had my daughter, I would take my son to I would take him to school in the morning, and then I’d stop and have a coffee with a couple of other mums, and then I’d walk home with my daughter in the buggy, and it was halfway home, which is 10 minute walk halfway home, I would suddenly feel that I needed to go for a poop. And there was absolutely nothing I could do absolutely nothing. You try and clench up and you know it’ll be all right. You can hold on and nothing, and it just would come out. And I was very grateful because my son and our family swim in a local pool, and it was actually halfway home along this big road. It’s a big open air pool. It’s lovely, and I knew all the people there, and so every morning I would go into the pool, and I’d go into the disabled toilet, and I’d take all my clothes off and put things in the bin and shower off and and and sort myself out. And I didn’t really, I didn’t really at the time, I think I didn’t really feel the anxiety. It was just that, you know, it happened, it was, it was a bit stressful at the time it happened, and it was just about how you deal with it. My husband always says it’s all about the recovery. It’s never about the issue. It’s all about the recovery. And he was right, in a way, because, yeah, we just deal with it. And then, and then I went to the doctors about that, and they had to, had to take a barrier meal, and they then had to sit on a toilet while they filmed me doing a poo. It’s all very lovely stuff to go through. And they said, Oh no, everything’s fine, which I still don’t quite believe that everything’s fine, because clearly not. But he said, you can manage it by using a glycerin suppository, which I do. So every morning I’ll have a glycerin suppository, which is really easy and very quick response from the glycerine supository, I just have to make sure that nobody’s going in the toilet in the next five minutes once I’ve got myself ready. So I deal with it that way. But also I’ve got the sacral neuro modulation, which is the wire, and they do say that that is good for bowel issues as well as bladder so I think that helps.

 

Geoff Allix  20:43

So on that. I mean, I think the taboo of this is, is dealing with other people, rather than ourselves. So so what tips did you have for talking to friends and family and healthcare providers as well about those more taboo topics and symptoms that you might have.

 

Hayley Baker  21:00

I think that you just need to try and be as open and honest with people as you can. I mean, I don’t go up to people and tell them that I have problems with my bowel and poo myself at time. You know, there’s, there’s a way of describing things to people. I suppose, when I was first diagnosed, I decided not to tell my family, not to tell my mum and dad or my children or my parents in laws, and we’re very close to my parents in laws, as well as my mum and dad, and I think really, if I’m honest, the main reason was I didn’t want my dad to feel guilty. And I didn’t want them to worry that I was gonnabe as progressively worse as he has been, because I didn’t really believe that I would be, although there is a fear, isn’t there, that you will be. But I didn’t believe that, having listened to Overcoming MS and heard the stories, and, you know, listening to the lifestyle changes, and like you say, the the data that there is around it, I don’t think that I will be as disabled as he has become. In a way, it was my MS. I didn’t want anybody else’s judgment on it. I wanted to sort of find it myself. I did end up having quite high anxiety at a certain point, and I started having panic attacks at work, which is really unlike me, because I’m normally so sort of calm about everything. But I was, I was having panic attacks, and I thought, well, what would I say to somebody else if that was happening to them? I mean, I’m the first one to say, well, you need to talk to people about it. You need to maybe find a therapist or, you know, and so I did reach out and found a therapist, and within a sort of week or two, she said to me, why aren’t you telling your mum and dad? And I went, I don’t know why, really. So I ended up telling my mum and dad, telling my children, and telling Ed’s parents, my parents in laws. And then once I’d done that, I was like, right, I’m In for a penny, in for a pound. I’m just gonna get it out there. I think going to the retreat really helped with my confidence in the idea of sharing. And so I decided, once I got back to work, having told all my family, I went back to work and I wrote all of my colleagues an email, and I sent it to them, and it was brilliant. I’ve actually written a new article about my conversations with my colleagues as part of MS Awareness Week. Is going to be part of the MS conversations. But it was really invigorating sending the email, and it was responded really well. People responded to it very well, but I think it was really easy to write the email and then leave it for a couple of days, go back and write it, and I find that I appreciate that sometimes emails can be misconstrued. Information can be misconstrued in text messages and things, but it was really good for me because it meant that I could say exactly what I wanted to say, and I wouldn’t have anyone interrupting me, and I could just put it down and then send it to them. It was good. So I would recommend that if you can write things down, even if you’re going to the doctors with a problem, write it down before you go, and then you can just show them the piece of paper, because it might be difficult to verbalize those things, but if you write it down, I think sometimes that actually helps us internally. And if you did it in a diary, then you know, a year later, you can possibly look at your diary notes and see where you’ve come and how you’ve survived. Or what you’ve gone through. I wrote this article. I’ve written two articles now, and both of them, I read them again, and I think, oh my gosh, I actually went through that. I actually, actually coped with that quite well, you know, quite good to reflect.

 

Geoff Allix  25:19

So to change subjects a little bit, you mentioned that you attended a recent Overcoming MS retreat. So could you tell us a bit about the retreats and what your biggest takeaways are from attending one?

 

Hayley Baker  25:32

My goodness. Well, that retreat was possibly the most amazing experience I’ve ever had in my life. I couldn’t believe that going from a 2019 diagnosis and the years of denial after that to then be turning around to someone and saying, I went to an Overcoming MS retreat. It was the most amazing experience in my life, and if I hadn’t had MS, I wouldn’t have gone. So in a way, I’m grateful. Sounds awful, doesn’t it, grateful that I’ve got MS, that I’ve met all these amazing people. I mean the facilitators, the people that work at Overcoming MS, but then the participants just lovely, absolutely lovely. And having those conversations, those open conversations with people, where you can relate to them, they can relate to you. It’s just so empowering. It’s really good. I was reading on the Hub home, somebody had written recently that they felt lonely. And I think that’s sad, isn’t it? And of course, I think we are all lonely with with MS, because we’re the ones struggling with it, and in you can’t always see it, you know, I can walk down the street. I went into a colleague the other day, and I was talking about Overcoming MS and doing this podcast, and she said, Oh. She said, who’s who’s got MS? And I said, Oh, it’s me. And she was like, Oh, my goodness, never knew. You know, but I think that’s the point, isn’t it? Because for a lot of us, there aren’t really all of those signs. You know, I haven’t broken my leg, it’s it’s sometimes invisible.

 

Geoff Allix  27:11

You’ve mentioned about your partner, so I believe you got a very supportive partner. So we’re back back to taboo ones again. How do you balance honest communication about your symptoms with your partner and maintaining intimacy?

 

Hayley Baker  27:26

I’ve been thinking about this question, and I was thinking, how am I going to answer that? Because the question is, do I want him to watch the podcast or  if he doesn’t, then I can just give you all my secrets, but that’s the point, isn’t it? I do have a very supportive partner, and it does surprise me many times how supportive he is, because I think sometimes, you know, some of the stuff that I go through is really not very pleasant. I wet the bed and I poo myself. They really are taboo subjects, aren’t they? So you know, how do I maintain intimacy? Because I do like being with him. I like having sex. And so how do I manage that in a bed, if I’ve wet the bed? So I tend to lay out these incontinence sheets I’ve got sheets that protect the bed anyway and I wear. I mean, it’s amazing that the companies that produce the pads that to the bladder pads that they produce now. I mean, they have developed them so much. There’s white pads, black pads. You’ve got pads to wear to bed. You’ve got knickers to wear to bed, and the knickers that you can wear to bed are black as well, which I love, so I can discreetly wear those and still feel a little bit sexy, because they’re not like big fat white things that, you know, stick out. And so he, my husband, goes to sleep early. He sleeps, goes to sleep before me. So I go into bed, and I lay out. I lay out all my stuff so that I can get to bed. And then I tend to wake up at about two in the morning, having wet the bed, not every night, but some nights. And then I and then I just sort of scooch it all up, and then go and have a shower. And then I’m ready, ready for the mornings adventures. But he probably knows, he I know he knows, but he, he doesn’t really make a big thing of it, and he allows me my little quiet moment so I can be discreet. And I’m not saying that you have to hide these things away, but I would like there to be a little bit of allure and mystery between the two of us. And so, you know, I do try and keep that bit to myself Even the other day. It was such a beautiful day, and I thought, right, I’m gonna I hoovered all of upstairs and changed the bed, and I had this beautiful had the summer quilt on, and everything was lovely. And I was so happy. I had a couple of glasses of wine. We went to bed, I promptly fell asleep on top of the quilt and woke up at two in the morning, and I hadn’t done any of my private things at all, and so I completely wet the quilt, completely wet through to the bed, to the bedding underneath. Obviously, I’ve got the protective sheet on there, and I had to wake him up at two in the morning. I was so upset, and I having been so happy about it being nice and clean and the sun shining, and had to wake him up. And I said, you’re gonna have to just go to the toilet. And I literally, he went down to the toilet. I was like, right. I’ve got five minutes to get everything changed and back together. And He came back in and slid back in the bed, and he said, You know, it’s absolutely fine. I still love you. And I thought that’s nice. He says to me, it doesn’t change how he feels about me and how he thinks about me. And of course, that is the way it should be. But it’s lovely to hear that, isn’t it, because you could be thinking inside, oh gosh. That’s me being totally open.

 

Geoff Allix  31:26

Well, yeah, I know it’s, in a way, it’s a, sort of, it’s a test of your relationship, isn’t it? And it does this set that resonates for me a lot. I sort of, you know, I realize my wife’s similar. She knows everything, but she won’t necessarily bring things up. She’ll sometimes just, yeah, act like there’s nothing going on there at all. And I just, and just, but yeah, it brings you closer, doesn’t it? I think because you realize that it’s not just you, it’s them as well, and they’re actually going through this as well.

 

Hayley Baker  31:58

Absolutely, absolutely. And it’s lovely that she gives you that she gives you that space to be, you know, to do your thing, and it for it not to become a big thing like you’d say. You know, the communication is really important, and sharing information and telling each other how you are, but sometimes you don’t need to go into it too much, I think it’s healthy.

 

Geoff Allix  32:20

So as a final question, do you have any tips for someone who is possibly newly diagnosed, or they’ve maybe been diagnosed for a while, but they’re new to the Overcoming MS program?

 

Hayley Baker  32:35

I think that what’s been quite a thread through all of our conversations is conversations and just being able to share. I think if it’s difficult to speak, I think maybe write things down. I think if you’re not following the Overcoming MS program, I think that you should just hopefully try and talk to your family and your friends, and then if you are following the Overcoming MS program, then you’ve got the Hub home, you’ve got your circles. There’s lots of webinars that you can join. And I just think being able to to communicate with people and to share your experiences is really the most important thing.

 

Geoff Allix  33:23

Thank you very much. With that, there’s just one final thing I wanted to mention, which is that the Living Well with MS podcast has recently been voted as one of the the top ms podcasts worldwide by they’re called Feed Spot who analyze podcast, all podcasts, so if you want to have a look, if you see that actually, I think we’re, I think we’re number eight, but the the top ones, you’ll have a lot of familiar people who’ve been our guests. So Aaron Boster is up there. Gretchen Hawley is one of the ones. Brandon Bieber, all those sort of people who we who are sort of friends the podcast, so you’ll, you’ll find a lot of good podcasts up there. But yeah, just to mention.

 

Hayley Baker  34:07

That’s great. That’s great. Actually, I did listen to Dr Aaron bostel The other day, and it was amazing.

 

Geoff Allix  34:15

He’s very good, isn’t it? Very much. A friend of Overcoming MS, so with that, I’d like to thank you very much for joining us. Hayley Baker.

 

Hayley Baker  34:26

Thank you so much. It’s been a pleasure. Thank you.

 

Overcoming MS  34:31

Thank you for listening to this episode of Living Well with MS. Please check out this episode’s show notes at overcoming ms.org/podcast you’ll find useful links and bonus information there. Don’t forget to subscribe to the podcast so you never miss an episode, and please rate and review the show to help others find us. This show is made possible by the Overcoming MS community. Our theme music is by Claire and Nev Dean. Our host is Geoff Allix, our videos are edited by Lorna Greenwood, and I’m the producer Regina Beach. Have questions or ideas to share? Email us at podcast, at overcoming ms.org, we’d love to hear from you. The Living Well with MS Podcast is for private, non commercial use, and exists to educate and inspire our community of listeners. We do not offer medical advice. For medical advice, please contact your doctor or other licensed healthcare professional.