S4E25 10 minutes with George Jelinek: Getting started with Overcoming MS

(04:03) “The OMS book is obviously a must-read. And that gives you the credibility and the science behind the whole program. This isn’t something that has just occurred to me in the middle of the night or anything like that. It’s taken quite a bit of work and a fair bit of time, and the right sort of background to understand the science to really put it together.”

(09:24) “The whole basis of OMS isn’t to tell people what to do. We’ve never, never sought to give rigid guidelines for people or anything like that. This is all about providing choices for people, choices [so] that they’re able to look at the range of what’s on offer and choose what’s most appropriate for them. For some people, that’s all of the program for some people, there will be parts that don’t feel appropriate for them.”

(11:55) “Quite apart from the health benefits, there are enormous benefits to one’s whole life in terms of the insight aspect that comes with meditation practice, [and] the improvement in one’s inner landscape and emotional life that that comes along with that. You develop and learn the skill of tolerating difficult thoughts and situations.”

Geoff Allix  0:02   

So welcome to the first edition of 10 minutes with George. And this is both the first edition of this type of product I’ve talked about because if you like this session of podcasts, and also the first time, we’re actually going to be going out on YouTube as well. So we have video as well. So welcome George Jellinek. 

 George Jelinek  0:25   

Well, thanks very much, Jeff. Good to be here. 

 Geoff Allix  0:28   

I think of any one of our podcasts, you probably need no introduction, but I will do a quick introduction. So George, is the founder of Overcoming Multiple Sclerosis. And his research really contributed to the whole prog ram on the contrary to that found in the whole program, and is the author of the Overcoming Multiple Sclerosis series of books now, which hopefully everyone has digested. And it’s very, very useful to get George back on the program to, to ask him questions from an expert point of view. So I wanted to start this, but the idea is, we’re just going to do a quick 10 minute questions. And they’re serious. And we’re going to come back to some more questions later on. But start off with so if someone’s just found the Overcoming Multiple Sclerosis program, what would you say some of the simplest ways that they can best understand what’s involved in the program? 

George Jelinek  1:34   

Well, I think these days, we’ve got such a range of resources that people can tap into. And this, I guess, you can sort of think of them as entry level resources, and then more sophisticated or more complex things. But I personally think the website is a great place to start because the information there is, is reasonably generic, it’s presented to a sort of wider audience doesn’t presuppose any, any particular background or science or anything like that. I think, following on from that, the OMS book is obviously a must read. And that kind of gives you the credibility and the science behind the whole program. So this isn’t something clearly that has just occurred to me in the middle of the night or anything like that. It’s taken quite a bit of work and a fair bit of time, and the right sort of background to understand the science to really put it together. What I would have said in the old days, probably while we’re still doing face to face retreats was that the real sort of icing on the cake is going to a retreat. But I know OMS are now moving towards doing some virtual retreats online, essentially a retreat on the I don’t think they they’re calling them that. But I know there’s something in October 2022 Pathway to Overcoming MS. I think those are a much more immersive kind of experience. But I guess the prerequisite really, is to come into the whole thing with an open mind and a questioning and curious sort of attitude about what you can do for yourself, to help yourself, improve and hopefully get better after this diagnosis. 

Geoff Allix  3:32   

I certainly when I started the the, it was the second edition of the Overcoming Multiple Sclerosis book, or actually the first edition with it being called that but essentially second edition book. And I’m really into the science of it. But I would say the Handbook as well, it’s quite useful because that’s less, maybe someone who’s not so interested in all the science, but you know, and then they can go into the Overcoming Multiple Sclerosis book and see all the actual references. I mean, there are countless pages of references. It was all backed up by science. But the Handbook is maybe quite an easier way to get into maybe. It’s yeah, look, 

George Jelinek  4:16   

I think you can do them in whichever order. You prefer, really the OMS book or the handbook first, but I think you’re right that the Handbook we haven’t really used a lot of scientific reference behind it. It’s a sort of combination really, of people’s lived experience of the program and of the illness, but also very reliant on the sort of foundations of that incredible science. The thing I guess that sets the Handbook apart from me, that makes it something really worthwhile for people early in the illness, the personal stories, because I think that’s the had sort of key ingredient of hope that people are often looking for, for early on, when they’re being barraged by all the negative, the negative images of what their future might look like. And sadly, a lot of that is everywhere through the scientific literature through health care. And to sort of look at that differently and find that, that little bit of hope, I think a lot of that is much more based on hearing other people’s stories than it is on the science, at least initially, when you first get a glimpse that it’s possible, not only to not deteriorate, but actually to live a sort of healthier life than you were living in to be well, that’s a sort of real light bulb moment for most people. I think, 

Geoff Allix  5:53   

When people adopt the program, some people are very keen to go all in. So personally, I just completely did everything straightaway. And then other people will gradually adopt the program. And do you think there’s pros and cons to different approaches? Or whether you know, whether you need to go 100%? Or Yeah, could you slowly change your lifestyle? 

George Jelinek  6:21   

Well, Geoff, I, the thing I’ve realized over the years is that everyone’s very different, obviously, and different approaches suit different people. You like me as soon, as I became aware of the research, particularly Swank’s research, as soon as I read that paper, my diet changed instantly. I mean, I simply couldn’t look at food that I knew was going to make me unwell. Given that I was looking at anything I could do to try and improve my situation. And of course, that rapidly led to finding all the other things that have become the OMS program. And it was such a simple decision. For me, it wasn’t even a decision, it was simply, as soon as I became aware, there was another thing I could do, like, get a bit more sun, keep my vitamin D level up, do more exercise, and so on, I immediately started doing it. And of course, that’s very reflective of my personal personality. And I’m sure it’s reflective of yours in the way you approached it. But I know a lot of people find that very daunting. And of course, the whole basis of OMS isn’t to tell people what to do, we’ve never, never sought to give rigid guidelines for people or anything like that. This is all about providing choices for people, choices that if they’re able to, to look at the range of what’s on offer and choose what’s most appropriate for them. For some people, that’s all of the program for some people, there will be parts that don’t feel appropriate for them, then they’ve got the best chance of being well. And I mean, the pace at which they do that. Another thing. I mean, I find it hard to understand why you wouldn’t do it really quickly when you know that there’s damage going on. But, of course some people find habits much harder to break than other people do. And a lot of those things are simply bad habits that have evolved over the course of one’s life and breaking them can be really hard for some people. 

Geoff Allix  8:35   

And in terms of specific parts of the program. Could you clarify a bit about the mindfulness and meditation part? So does different mindfulness practices count towards that element of the program? I mean, some people, it could be that they have a mindful practice, which involves cold water swimming or walking or, or, you know, they can be doing yoga retreats, or they could be doing recorded meditation sessions, but all of those count, or is there specific mindfulness practices that are more beneficial? 

George Jelinek  9:14   

No, they all count. And the, I mean, this is such a big area, it’s sort of almost a whole area that’s deserving of a sort of volume in its own right, because there is so much to mindfulness and meditation in general. That isn’t just about stress reduction. I mean, stress reduction is what drove the whole thing initially, because of that very clear link between stress and worsening of the illness that is now well established in the medical literature. But there’s so much more to mindfulness than just stress reduction, and so much more to other meditative practices like yoga and tai chi and so on. I mean, quite apart from the health benefits, there are enormous benefits to one’s whole life in terms of the sort of insight aspect that that comes with meditation practice the, the sort of improvement in one’s inner landscape and emotional life that that comes along with that. development and learning the skill of kind of tolerating difficult thoughts and situations. So I mean, you could really run several workshops on this and just scratch the surface. But I would encourage anyone looking into that aspect of the program, to do whatever it is that they find that most suits them. And of course, the aim in mindfulness in general, isn’t just for 30 minutes in the chair every day, it’s it’s taking that mindful approach out to life so that some people actually find they are very mindful, without doing the meditation on a daily basis, and they recalibrate their lives, pay more attention, get more involved in what they they seeing and experiencing and feeling. And that, of course, is the aim of the whole thing. Quite apart from this, that stress reduction, the more general aim in terms of improving one’s life. So it may not completely answer your question, but I’m very open to all those different approaches. And sometimes, I mean, I regularly meditate quite frequently, twice a day, mostly once a day. And it’s made an enormous difference to my life. But equally, I’ve done quite a bit of yoga at different times of I get an enormous amount out of out of composing, playing recording music, listening to music, there’s a whole range of activities that that induce that same kind of insight. 

Geoff Allix  12:09   

And on another aspect, the OMS diet, would you say that there’s elements of the OMS diet, which should be prioritized more over others? So if someone were to gradually adopt program, are the elements of that which you would say should be prioritized? 

George Jelinek  12:30   

Yeah, look, I think the sort of key to it is the plant based aspect. In terms of overall health, avoiding animal products, plus or minus seafood. I mean, people had that as an option they can take which broadens a whole range of possibilities, but to make the basis of the diet built around plants, I think it’s the real key because that almost implies the Whole Foods part of it as well. Once you’re on a, essentially a plant based diet, then it’s, it’s still possible to eat a lot of junk if you really try that. For people who are preparing their own food. It’s very hard to to prepare plants in a way that is really unhealthy. Oh, you know, with a bit of effort, you can do it. 

Geoff Allix  13:28   

I think in supermarkets in the UK now, there’s a lot of that because there’s a lot more veganism now. So there’s, there’s a big amount of heavily processed vegan food that, yeah, probably, you could quite easily become an unhealthy vegan nowadays, I think. 

George Jelinek  13:46   

Yeah, yeah, buying off the shelf, buying processed food and buying things with a list of ingredients, 15, 20, 30 items long, sort of getting out of the realm of food, really. And I started not to say that as food, that sort of more chemistry experiment, really. And were the guinea pigs. 

Geoff Allix  14:05   

And finally, why would you think that some people do better on Overcoming MS than others? I mean, there’s certainly we have, we’ve had talks, people running marathons, climbing mountains, doing extraordinary things, and then other people who are fully compliant with Overcoming MS do end up maybe in a wheelchair or certainly with mobility issues. So there’s a real array of people who have we’re all following Overcoming MS, but have quite different results. 

George Jelinek  14:42   

That is a really critical question. I think. And a lot of research effort needs to go into that. I mean, we’re we’re probably a little way down the track yet. A little early. To get to that question in terms of the research that I’ve been involved with we’ve published an awful lot, which strongly supports the better outcomes associated with the key planks of the OMS program. But further down the track once it’s more broadly accepted, I think more research teams will start investigating the space. And I think there are going to be things that we come up with, for instance, people’s genetic makeup, you know, we’re really talking about, and this is possibly getting a bit complex, it is really about epigenetics. It’s about the way lifestyle influences your genetic expression. But you’re still dealing with the basic DNA that is essentially, almost immutable through your life. And so I suspect we’re going to find just as we do with standard pharmaceutical or surgical treatments, that some people respond well, and some people respond not so well, and that there’s often a genetic basis. So pharmacogenetics is a sort of emerging field where they can start to, perhaps screen people to predict who’s going to do well on a particular drug and who isn’t. And I think we may find that something like that applies to OMS. Because of course, it’s it’s a great concern to people when they’re really adherence and rigorously following a program like this, if they find they’re not improving, and they’re starting to deteriorate. 

Geoff Allix  16:42   

Okay, that is the final question for this episode. So, thank you very much for joining us on the first edition of 10 minutes with George.  

George Jelinek  16:53   

Thanks, Geoff.